Have you tried putting the trash cans on the counter? I’m serious…put the cans up onto the counter where he usually leaves his rubbish. It’ll look really stupid, and be completely inefficient to put trash into, but he might finally get the point.
I’m just chiming in to agree with Q.N. Jones and Beadalin and others that you are asking for this sort of treatment: you are treating him like a child, so he is acting like a child.
Now, there’s nothing wrong with a bit of casual husband bashing–I do it myself–but if you are really miserable, if this is really a signifigant source of stress and pain in your life, you need to change some things.
You need to sit down together and work out a reasonable division of chores–don’t “tell him what you expect”–work together to figure out what is reasonable. Get him to agree of his own free will that he should be responsible for certain things. Make sure the words “my job is . . . .” come out of his mouth. I would strongly recomened that you do not try and each be responsible for oyur own stuff, but instead each take over all the mess in whole catagories: i.e., one of you do all the dished, the other, all the laundry. Worrying about who left what dish where will wear you out.
Then let him go. Let him starve if he dosen’t pack a lunch–it won’t hurt him. Let him have to call in sick to work becauwe he has no clean clothes. Let him take three times longer to do the dishes than you would have taken because he’s stupid about it. You married a smart guy, he’ll figure it out. And there’s no prize for efficiency. Don’t stress about him–it ain’t your problem.
If you want, and only if you want, you can occasionally do “his” jobs, but do so as a gift, and act as you would with any other gift–don’t do it in order to get anything back, or act peevish about giving it.
I think that many women think that they are ulimitly responsible for hte whole house, and that that means that if their man is a slob it reflects badly on them. Try not to think this way.
Lastly, if you just absolutly have different standards about what an “acceptable” state of order in a house is and he is simply not going to meet your standard because he dosen’t think it is valuble, you have to accept that the two of you have two different value sysytems, neither is “wrong” or “right”, and you really have threee choices:
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You can adjust to a house that is somewhere between what he is willing to live in and what oyu think is the “bare minimum”.
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You can accept that this is your thing, that it gives you pleasure and not him, and since it is you thing, you have to do more work.
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You can leave. Relationships are voluntary, and there’s nothing wrong with ending one if you have incompatable values.
RAVING ABOUT MY HUSBAND:
Mr. S has done all of our laundry (except my hand washables, which I won’t let him touch) since we first moved in together. We discovered that he’s more picky about it than I am, so I let him do it. We’ve never had a washer/dryer – he sorts it all into Rubbermaid tubs and hauls it to the Laundromat. Sometimes I come along and help him load the machines and fold (but if I’m buried in work, or not feeling well, I stay home). But he judges when the stuff is dry. I get some mighty strange looks from other women who see me asking HIM questions about how to do things. At home I have magic drawers and hangers that are automatically refilled with clean clothes.
Other than that, well, before Mr. S got downsized in 2001, we shared all the other work 50/50. But after he got downsized, he worked a REALLY sucky job for about 9 months, until we realized that I was covering all the bills with what used to be about 40% of our joint income (we’d cut back, obviously!). So he quit this August. Now he’s Mr. Mom (without the kids), when he’s not working a nicer temp job one or two days a week.
In the morning he walks the dogs and puts them in their pens, while I stumble into my home office and try to wake up. He goes into the kitchen and does the dishes; he likes using the time to make his morning tea, think about his plans for the day, and soak his arthritic hands in the hot water. A little later he delivers breakfast to my desk: a sliced apple and two kinds of cheeses artfully fanned out, a bunch of grapes, a buttered English muffin or toast, yogurt, amd maybe a little chocolate cookie. Sometimes juice and a napkin, if I ask for them. Some mornings he makes fruity scones from SCRATCH. I nibble on my goodies all morning while I work, and when the plate is empty, it magically disappears.
He spends the day working on projects around the house, hauling trash to the dump, mopping the kitchen floor, working on the yard, cutting firewood, cleaning the cars, grocery shopping, working on his art ideas and helping me with mine, running errands for me . . . I’d say it’s about 50/50 on who makes my lunch. But dinner is all his – he’s been delving into our stack of cookbooks. Afterward he clears the dishes and puts away the leftovers. At night he feeds all the critters (vestige from his farm-boy days – he can’t relax until everyone’s taken care of), and gives the dogs their last walk before bedtime. I thanks him profusely throughout the day for all the wonderful things he does, and especially the things I must ask him to do – things that I would do myself if I weren’t busy making our living.
He loves his new “job.” Really. When people ask what’s new, we tell them that I have a new wife, and he laughs. He’s the master of his own time. Granted, he batched it for about 14 years before he met me. Also, he grew up with only sisters in the house, and he’s always gotten along better with women than with men. I’ve seen him do the “caring, loving nurturer” thing for other people too, so many times that I’ve lost count. He doesn’t do all the chores perfectly, or exactly the way I would do them – but I know I’m anal retentive, so if the towels aren’t folded perfectly, so what? So I think I’ll keep him.
A week or so ago, at his temp job he overheard two women bitching about their husbands complaining about their husbands – whenever his car or hunting stuff needs repair, it gets taken care of right away, but when they ask for some work around the house, it doesn’t get done. Typical war-of-the-sexes grumbling. Then they asked him if it was like that at our house. He told them, “Well, I pretty much take care of my wife since she’s paying the bills – whatever Scarlett wants, Scarlett gets!” I would have loved to see the looks on those hens’ faces. He said they didn’t say much to him after that.
(Why yes, I DO know that I’ve found Prince Charming and am spoiled rotten! ::ducks flying objects :: )
and no, I’m not married to LouisB – heavens, my husband’s only 12 years older than I am, not 30! 
Hey, in some cases, the man adopts the woman. heh. 
Tibs.
p.s. I’m really not that cynical - I’d love to spend my life with someone.
I’m sure that some of us are enabling, to some degree at least, this type of behavior in our husbands. But please keep in mind that this (although lightly treated here) can be a serious issue that may not be solved by simply sitting down and having a heart to heart.
My husband and I have been in marriage counseling for more two YEARS and we are STILL working on this issue. It’s easy to envision the steps two reasonable, rational, loving, equal partners would go through to reach a solution…but with problems like this, it’s difficult for both parties to keep all of those qualities in place. Standing up for yourself in these situations can be terribly difficult, if not impossible.
Left to his own devices, my husband would work, eat, play video games, and sleep. That’s it–no housework, no outdoors work, no keeping the car running, no errands, no nothing. If he were single, living in the resulting health hazard would be acceptable, but we are a family of six, and no one here can afford to slack off, including the kids. It took months and months of therapy to get him to realize that the work we do to keep the household running is a responsibility that both of us have to bear, no matter how tired we are, no matter how many hours we do (or don’t) work outside the home, no matter how “motivated” we are, etc.
Just don’t want dragongirl to feel like this is all her fault, and that all she has to do is follow some simple formula to “fix” it. Unfortunately, it might not be that simple. Even if we are enabling, it’s a helluva situation to deal with day in, day out, and it can be exhausting.
Best, dragongirl. I know it’s tough.
bodypoet, I completly agree that this can be a serious, relationship-threatening problems. However, I also hate to see women (and more often than is realized, men) suffering , agonizing, and nagging to no effect, or where the only effect is to make the man miserable, too. What I see over and over again is one spuse struggling and nagging and stressing over making the other spouse do something. To me, one of the most profound truths behind a successful relationship is that not only can you not make the other person do anything, you ought not even try. All you can control are oyur own reactions to what they do. It seems to me that the suggestions I made above are real-world ways to, if not alter the other person, at least alter the emotional angst you feel–liberation comes not from finally getting them to help out, but from accepting that getting them to help out is not your job. It’s a hard thing to do–I don’t deny it–but I still think it is worth saying.
Sorry to interrupt the husband-bashing, since it seems like these guys really deserve it, but I just would like point out that not all of us are like that.
Sure, I have a few annoying habits (like leaving my shoes or slippers in the living room instead of taking them upstairs at night), but then, so does my wife (leaving letters and schoolwork on the dining room table for weeks until the surface of the thing can no longer be discerned).
But, overall, we’re both able to be self-sufficient, make our own lunches, clean up our own messes, and I always…always put my dirty clothes in the hamper.
Truly, you have my sympathies. That’s no way for a grown man to behave.
I in no way intended to imply that it’s all her own fault. I’m sorry if it was taken that way.
But I’ve seen my parents let a situation like this get to the point where my mother no longer loves my father because of his behavior. And when you ask my mom about how this got started, she admits that she let him put her in charge of all the household chores from the very beginning. After 35 years of a marriage like this, my dad sincerely believes that he needs my mom like you need food, water, and air to breathe–because he wouldn’t know how to function day-to-day without her. Yes, he pretty much said just those very words the other day.
Mom calls it “learned helplessness”, and guess what–he learned it from her. Yes, she admits that.
Unfortunately, after 35 years, they finally realize what’s wrong–they just feel too old to fix it. And it’s very sad to watch.
So, while talking about it might not be (probably won’t be) the magic solution, it’s definitely the right first step to take.
Just don’t end up like my parents. It’s excruciatingly painful to watch.
Well, this I can help with, at least:
Mousetraps.
Problem solved.
I think your post is spot on, Manda Jo, especially this:
*I think that many women think that they are ultimately responsible for the whole house, and that that means that if their man is a slob it reflects badly on them. *
Isn’t it sad that we are conditioned to feel this way?
I just don’t want dragongirl to end up feeling like this is all her fault, if she were just stronger/more assertive/more whatever, then her problem would be solved, because it’s just not usually that simple. And realistically, he isn’t acting like a child only because she is treating him like a child, but very probably because he has a long-established history of behaving this way.
I have had to look, in my own life, very closely at the choices you’ve listed. Luckily, my husband is willing to make some changes so that the less-desirable options don’t come to be, but it has taken some serious soul-searching and very strong devotion to maintaining our relationship to keep things going. And, like I said, it has taken a very long TIME…this is not always just a matter of sticking a list of “His/Her Chores” on the cabinet and crossing your fingers. Aaah, if it were just that simple!
Best,
k
My husband and I renegotiate work every few months or so. Last time we traded washing dishes (which he hates) for shopping for groceries (which I hate). Woo!
We also hired a housecleaner for every two weeks. I could never, ever keep up with the cleaning required to maintain a household with him in it, and he just won’t clean.
We’ve had the “you’re a big boy, and I’m not your mommy” types of talks, but in the end what works is I just don’t freaking do it. Period. What’s for dinner? Dunno, find something. Where’s my clothes? Probably dirty!
You’re not your husband’s keeper. It takes two to run a house. If one isn’t mature enough to participate, then he/she shouldn’t be living with another person and making them miserable. One also should never allow a spouse to manipulate them into waiting on them hand and foot.
I just wanted to clarify a few things here. I have never given in to my husbands crap, but I am really fucking sick of hearing the same things all the time.
He did pay the money back to me, I knew he would, I am pissed though that he took it without asking me about it though. It was just a really stupid thing to do, and the stupidity is what I’m pissed about. He never thinks anything through, he just does stuff. I just wish he’d use a little bit of his brain.
I think renegotiating on a regular basis is a good idea, Zette. Since we aren’t very good at doing such things on our own yet, we do most of our renegotiating with our therapist. We’re getting better, though.
I picked up another small paper route for the express reason of hiring someone to clean once a month or so (and treating myself to a massage on a regular basis). My husband is having a cow about the cleaning service–he doesn’t want a stranger to do it, even though he doesn’t do it himself. But since cleaning is 90% MY department, I’m in charge of making the major cleaning decisions.
I so understand, dragongirl. I discovered recently (when my husband was away for several days) that I am, basically, a serene person, and I lose that when I start reacting to his behaviors. So when he returned, I explained this to him, and now I am working really hard to keep my Bubble of Serenity intact no matter how much he provokes me.
As a bonus, it’s kind of hard to stay mad when I’m yelling “You’re intruding on my fucking Bubble of Serenity here!!!” 
I’m with ivylass on this one. Going into the wallet is a tad strange, taking all the money and leaving you with none stranger still, and the excuse that this undetermined amount was needed for fuel is strangest of all. Any fool could have grabbed a twenty and considered it sufficient.
I’d quiz him on this and attempt to balance the books, as it were. Just a suggestion.
In all seriousness, I think this issue boils down to a level of maturity – accepting responsibility for one’s own actions (and messes).
My wife and I have something of a system in place – the household chores are fairly evenly divided. I take care of all the yardwork, vacuuming, dusting (usually) and the trash. She handles bathrooms, laundry, the kitchen and general straightening in our and the kids’ bedrooms. Whoever cooks, the other usually cleans.
But I agree with those who’ve said that she feels the house, the whole house, is her responsibility. Whenever we have one of those “cleaning weeks,” where we get really serious about getting all the chores done in a set amount of time, she makes a list of all the stuff that needs to be done. But more often than not, she considers that “her list,” and gets stressed out about it. I will freely admit that some of the things that make the list never would have occurred to me to do, but I’m happy to do them if I know they need to be done.
She also feels that she needs to make supper every night, despite the fact that we both work full-time jobs. I keep telling her that I enjoy cooking (although I’m not great at it by any stretch, I can handle most packaged meals with no problem), but it’s rare that I’m able to do that. She gets home before me, and will usually have stuff going by the time I get there.
I guess what I’m saying is that many guys are perfectly willing to let someone else handle chores, and many women feel (wrongly, in my opinion) that the chores are theirs to do in the first place. It takes a mindset change on both parts before a resolution can even begin to be made.
Going into my wife’s purse? Rarely, and then only when she’s specifically asked me to do it to find or get something for her.
I feel extremely fortunate. I have a husband who cooks and does laundry and does dishes. If he’d only wipe up the counters after doing the dishes, or fold and put away laundry, I’d live in Utopia.
He didn’t dust or vaccuum or clean bathrooms. So we got a housekeeper. Now neither of us dusts vaccuums or cleans bathrooms. I know it isn’t a financial option for everyone, but even if you can do what bodypoet does and just treat yourself once a month - it can take some of the stress off this issue in a marriage.
But I do know where you are coming from Dragongirl. My first husband was less helpful. People would ask “when are you having kids?” and my answer was “Having them? I already have one, I married him!”
My husband is a counter-wiper, a dish-picker-upper, and a laundry-in-the-hamper kind of guy. I tend to be a slob for a couple days and then I pick up after myself. The house never looks hideously bad, and frankly, I have other things to stress about. It’s just not worth it to either of us to make a huge issue out of it. If we don’t like the looks of something, we pick it up. On a scale of one to ten, the house looks like an 8. But I only have to do a little extra cleaning to get it in tip-top shape when people come over. I’m cool with it.
So.
Why the hell did you marry them?
You thought they’d switch from single slobs into domesticated husbands instantly?
I hope you are all perfect at chores your husband thinks are important.
I’m not really mad or offended or trying to cause trouble, but there are always 2 sides to every relationship.
Okay, rynn, listen fast:
Ways to NOT Piss People Off:
a. “Say, I’m curious. Were the Slobs in these situations always Slobs, or did they get worse over the years? Is it a problem that has gotten worse since you, you know, got married, added a couple of kids to the equation, started working more hours, etc?”
b. “I know there are two sides to every situation, so I wonder if this problem is bad enough to be a relationship-breaker, or is your relationship, overall, worthwhile?”
c. “Why on earth would someone marry such a pig? What were you, on drugs? This man is not fit for marriage and should be abandoned, posthaste. IMHO ONLY, of course.”
See how easy that was? As opposed to:**
**
See that “So.” Alienating, right out of the gate.
**
Newsflash, sweetpea. My husband doesn’t think ANY chores are important. I bet that’s true of many spouses here.
Seriously. Do any of us sound stupid? Do any of us sound like we are claiming to be perfect partners, perfect in our chores, perfect in ANY way? Did anyone mention expecting a husband to change overnight into the Perfect Housekeeper? Some of us are talking about YEARS here. Change is slow and hard to come by, and if you haven’t been there, this would be a very good time for you to sit back, be quiet, and LEARN.
EchoKitty, that sounds exactly like my situation. “Clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy,” as they say. I’m glad I’ve got a fairly neat guy. Most of his major efforts are directed to the outside of the house, which is fine with me, and he does dishes and takes out garbage, too. I cook about half the time and he reheats the other half (neither of us wants to eat his cooking, but he nukes things very nicely).
I used to be much pickier about the state of the house, then we had The Offspring and a lot of stuff just went undone. And the house didn’t fall down. So I’m a lot more relaxed about it, as long as a basic level of hygiene is maintained. But personal boundaries are inviolable. Mr. Hawk would never go into my wallet uninvited. (Though if the pizza guy’s at the door, I will holler “Just take it!” To Mr. Hawk, not the pizza guy.) My sympathies to dragongirl and I hope she can help her guy learn to think (though as it’s been pointed out, he is going to have to do the thinking himself).