Bead, I am asking whether we should judge those who have rape fantasies, and if we do, is the judgement placed upon the type of fantasy, the position the person holds in the fantasy, etc etc…?
That is, would who here would consider that if an act is wrong that fantasizing about that act is also wrong? I do not want to presume one side or another right off but I think it is a very interesting question. Probably a pretty touchy question, so if anyone dodges it then I understand. Hell, I want to but it really seems like a good question.
Or would rape be wrong if it suited the rape fantasy?
At first glance this seems to be a rather large moral conundrum to me.
It pretty much goes without saying that no guy should go out and presume to fulfill this kind of fantasy for a woman. He’s bound to pick the wrong one, or he’s going to be the wrong guy.
But a woman shouldn’t have too much trouble fulfulling some guy’s fantasy, and she’ll get sex out of the deal too.
What you’re talking about here is thought crime, and I think it’s a separate sphere of discussion. It’s been discussed here before, but the search engine is rebelling so I can’t post any examples. What, precisely, is wrong with fantasizing about something that’s wrong? My rape fantasies are in no way different than my other daydreams about having the power of flight, or of burning my office to the ground, or of what I’d do with a million dollars, or of slapping my landlord right in the face. They are all fantasies. Nothing more, nothing less. Some are about wonderful things, some are morbid, some are hilarious, some are shameful. Who cares? And if someone else cares what I think about, why? They cannot and do not impact anyone other than me.
Jesus! Fantasies. Fantasies. Because I choose to imagine something does not mean that I want it to happen in real life. I don’t want my own husband to do the things I think about, much less someone I don’t know & trust. Like I said earlier, I do NOT want to be raped in real life, nor do I consider rape a sexual act, or feel anything other than horror over the act itself IRL. My husband and I jointly fantasize about three-ways. Neither of us want to pursue one. All fantasies are a form of play, a “what if.” Not all the "what if"s are pretty, and I see no compelling reason why they should be. They bring harm to no one, in fact, sometimes the result is quite nice, indeed.
It would seem to me that a fundamental difference between fantasy and reality is that in fantasy, the fantasizer has the ability to tune out those aspects that they might find unpleasant in real life. Were the fantasy to come to fruition, those unpleasant relities would be forced on them.
Bead, I wasn’t trying to lead into a discussion of the moral judgement of a female who has a rape fantasy (her getting raped) but the male who would have a rape fantasy.
Are we still in the same situation? I would assume you are in the “yes” camp. Fair enough, I’m just asking.
You know, I can actually relate to that…my last girlfriend wanted me to be VERY aggressive with her, and she wanted me to hold her down, be very controlling, she said things like “the rougher it is, the better,” etc. It got the point that I was being so rough with her that it kind of scared me, yet she wanted me to be even MORE aggressive. Now, maybe it’s something inborn in me as a male, but I enjoy being the sexually dominant partner; yet there is still a limit to what I would be willing to do, unless perhaps I worked up to it gradually.
jonfromdenver (and any other guy I can make this point to),
A woman who doesn’t say yes but wants sex is not having a rape fantasy. She is refusing to take responsibility for her own sexuality. Tread very, very carefully here. I was raped by a guy who mistook my no for “I’d like to but can’t say yes because then I’d be a bad girl.” He was flabbergasted by my post-coital instistance it was non-consentual sex - rape.
I’ve heard there are women who play these games. They are to be avoided. I think one thing every sexually active human being deserves is a partner who is willing to take responsiblity for their own sexuality. It doesn’t have to be “Fuck me,… yeah, from behind, … deeper,… harder,… yes,… yes,… YES!” but it should at least be not saying no when meaning yes or yes when meaning no.
It sounds like that’s what you’ve been doing. And if she breaks it off - good riddance.
Rape fantasies on the other hand, are like Beadlin and jarbaby describe…very dark things. Mine come from dreams. I have had no purposeful rape fantasies since my rape, but they come unbidden during sleep and need to be replayed. They are shared with no one.
I would also ask if anyone has ever had a fantasy, a what if? someone in your family was killed suddenly? Like, I’ll be at home, and think-what would happen if they called and said my father was killed in a car accident?
Absolutely. In fact, I have had such a thing quite a bit recently as I found myself imagining hearing of another terrorist incident. These can make me feel guilty because sometimes the imagining does feel almost like wishing it will happen. But, I was told once by a therapist that this is a rather common way of dealing with something your afraid of happening…is sort of fantasizing about it happening.
As to erislover’s question…As my above statement would imply, I don’t think a guy should feel guilty about having fantasies of raping someone…just as long as there isn’t any real danger that you will go out and translate this into action. Basically, I really think it is our actions, and not our thoughts, that carry moral consequences. (Admittedly, one’s thoughts while committing an action do weigh into it…hence the distinction made between pre-meditated murder and murder in a fit of rage. But, as long as the action part is missing, I don’t think one should get too concerned about one’s thoughts.)
Of course, I think it is sometimes useful to try to figure out why one has certain thoughts. For example, those of us who suppress anger very…too…well are liable to have that suppressed anger acted out in the form of violent fantasies.
I should note it’s also possible for a male to have fantasies about being raped by another male, of course.
At any rate, I can’t conceive of a moral sphere in which fantasies could have ethical weight. Part of the point of ethics is that they prevent you from doing everything you think of; to keep us from committing wrong acts, not to keep us from having fantasies about wrong acts. I have never objected to fantasies, either purely mental or creatively depicted, about wrong acts.
Well, if she told you, that would take all the mystique out of it for her, wouldn’t it?
No, she must keep it a secret and drop ever-so-subtle hints from time to time that she may or may not be interested in you. That way, she can complain about how there aren’t any good men out there when you don’t turn around and rape her in the parking lot.
Most people (male AND female) have fantasies of being snuck up on, erotically speaking, accessed without permission and “had”–not violently raped (usually) but seduced. And most of us also have fantasies of doing it to someone else as well. As with participation in tickle-fights when we were younger, there is fun in flirting with the edges of power and vulnerability.
Our culture and its images reinforce the tendency of women to focus on the erotic aspects of being victimized, but it is commonly known that men fantasize a lot about being seduced, and for us, too, it wouldn’t be much of a fantasy if we did not imagine ourselves getting turned on in spite of ourselves.
A bit less publicized and less acknowledged, I think, is the existence and pervasiveness of women’s fantasies of being the seductress–not just being slinky and vampy, but of catching some guy in a situation where he really does not intend to be open to the possibility of sex with her, or isn’t supposed to according to rules he believes in (I’ve heard young priests are a common fantasy character here) and getting him without his permission.
I’m not sure about “most people”. The content of sexual fantasies are certainly tied to the view of sexuality that person has, and the society s/he lives in has.
According to polls, rape fantasies are highly unusual where I live, perhaps because I live a country that is one of the most gender equal and sexual liberal in the world.
I have never had any rape fantasies, nor have I heard any on my female friends who had any, so I can’t speak out of personal experience, but I do belive there are different categories of rape fantasies.
Not needing to take responsibility for your sexuality and thus dreaming of a “rough lover” might be qualitatively different from fantasizing about physical violence, and being really scared. Consenting without saying so is IMO vastly different from not wanting it to happen at all.
Rape is very often an extremely traumatic event for both men, women and children. The importance of not overgeneralising some people’s rape or domination fantasies, can not be overstressed.
well said. this is how nature keeps us reproducing. if only all women could understand that 80% of the time, having sex with a man is no great feat. the majority of the time he wants it anyway, and if he doesn’t, he soon will. not because of the powers of the seductress, mind you, but because of the power of his gonads.
let me quote myself:
i’m sorry, i was a bit unclear in that post. the instances i was speaking of were a different kind of rape fantasy than the violent ones that seem kind of weird to most.
but your post brings me to another point, the vulnerability of the fairer sex mixed with the stupidity of the dumber sex. i’ve heard many a story of what you described, the man having no clue that he just raped someone. while i myself don’t think i could ever be that clueless, i think that many men are. a good portion of men (not all, by any means) understand nothing about the female pysche, and make no attempt to relate. some men even think that is a little too “gay” for them (but if you ask me, the most stable heterosexual men are the ones who can freely talk about things like relating to women, and homosexuality, even in relation to themselves). therefore, i think many instances of rape are unknown by the male, maybe even indefinately. women really need to know that they should make their intentions and ground rules known in plain, simple, male-understandable terms, or there could be trouble.
I agree, women need to learn to communicate what they want and don’t want much clearer, and men need to learn not to generalise the “mean yes but says no” sterotype.
But I believe there is more to it than that. Acoording to a study I read, 50% of all US college (or high school, I don’t remember) boys said they would rape a girl on a date if they were sure of getting away with it. IMO there’s something basically destructive going on if that study is even close to representative. Any thoughts?
Jarbaby and Dangerosa-It took a lot of courage to tell us what you have. In the real world, this is the point where I give the speaker a hug and burst into tears. I’m stunned that J can share anything that painful, and then put a smiley in the next paragraph! Quit your job and teach coping skills. I say that seriously. I’m 27 and my main strategy for coping with disaster is eating a lot of chocolate and sleeping for 24 hours.
Since my last post, I have heard women with rape fantasies. As a student of the human mind, I'm confused and fascinated. I'm stunned into near incoherence at the moment. So, I'll stop typing now.
This is, perhaps, an inapt analogy, but I’ll try it anyway.
I have frequent fantasies about being an NFL quarterback… of course, in my fantasies, I always throw touchdown passes, pass protection never breaks down, I never have to run for dear life, and I never have 300 pound guys stomping on my face.
In short, my NFL quarterback fantasies don’t bear much resemblance to the reality faced by Brian Griese and Kurt Warner.
In the same way, a woman’s “rape” fantasies probably involve something like… oh, think of Rhett Butler carrying Scarlett up the stairs to bed, sort of (but not REALLY) against her will. In a woman’s fantasies, there may be a genuine thrill to the idea of a man she likes carrying her away, and making passionate love to her. That’s a far cry from REAL rape, where violence or the threat of violence is involved.
I think you’d be well served if you examined your gender predjudices. Trying to understand people by looking for “male” and “female” traits is a dead end.
There is no “female psyche.” Each female has her own psyche. You could come to understand me deeply. Wouldn’t help you to understand Jarbaby. Or vice versa. Some women have rape fantasies. Some don’t.
I agree that looking at the reasons why some females have rape fantasies is interesting and worthwhile. But you can’t extrapolate that to an understanding of females in general. Each individual female is different.
I think you have a point with that. AFAIC, there is nothing or no one more exciting than Rhett Butler. swoons We all knew that he wouldn’t hurt Scarlett, but we knew he could, he just chose not too because all he did want was passionate love.
Of course, he left the very next morning for Europe…that wasn’t very exciting.
