"Rape" sex?! What the hell is wrong with you people?! (Fucked up!)

The BBQ Pit
41

Now look, I resent your taking my post as meaning a blanket endorsement for tolerance of all things repugnant.

All I am saying is, there are many things discussed on the board that are genuinely reprehensible to the educated mind. That becomes increasingly apparent as a thread wears on because one notices that only the known bigots and morons are chiming in to support said idea. I’m thinking, for example, of discussions of racial superiority. But when I look at this thread, I see people posting patient explanations of the potential appeal of this kind of material, and these posters are (as far as I can recall) genuinely respected and known as thoughtful, intelligent Dopers.

I’m saying, at what point does that tell you something? I’ve had some pretty firm opinions about things but have had my eyes opened on these boards–not because in the name of “fighting ignorance” I have to listen to every fuckhead who spouts an opinion, but because I’ve heard from bright, classy people whose differing viewpoints are credible to me because of who they are.

Does that make my meaning clearer? I should have said this in the first place; I am sorry for not being thorough–my fault.

42

ok, space vampire, you’ve convinced me. i am going to mend my ways.

but before i can change my sex life to fit your definition of ok, i need a few things answered:

first, who is the evil one, is it just my husband who pretends to rape me, or am i evil as well for wanting to be “raped”?

who is the victim? is it me? despite the fact that i am a consenting adult? or is it him, since it was my idea?

when does it become evil? when i think about it? when we actually act out the fantasy? is it the taking of pictures, or posting them to the 'net? if we take pictures but only for ourselves, is that ok?

please tell me. i’d hate for my sex life to be of any further concern to you.

43

Well, I can understand the viewpoint of the OP (rape is wrong, wrong wrong, ew ew ew!). And it sounds like there is a certain faction of porn on the web which presents “rape” a little too realistically. Major horrible, as far as I am concerned.

But on the other hand, many of you make a good case. I know a lot of people who read “bodice rippers” (I’ve read a few) and there are plenty of plots that involve near-rape, or “it starts out as rape and then she ends up liking it”. A LOT of romance novels include these kind of scenarios, and perfectly “normal” people read them. Sure, they are weird, tacky stories (and what’s so bad about that once in a while?), and I’ll bet they are a bit of a guilty pleasure for many people. But these stories are NOTHING like “real” rape, and shouldn’t be confused as such.

As long as the person reading the stuff knows it’s a fantasy, and doesn’t start thinking glorified thoughts about rape, it’s probably not too terrible. Bad fiction (as these books usually are), but not morally terrible.

44

Rape is a no-brainer- it’s wrong. guess since I don’t believe in God I don’t have a nice, convenient list of infallible moral truths coming down from the heavens, but I think most people who deserve to breath can agree that, generally speaking, hurting people isn’t desirable.

Personally, though I find rape fantasy play repulsive and incomprehensible, I’m not particularly concerned with it if that’s what the parties involved are into. Rape porn and its aggressive spamming I have a big problem with. At best, it’s encouraging problematic attitudes for profit. At worst, it’s showing alleged real rapes (and even if they’re not real, the fact that they’re being pushed on their authenticity makes it almost as bad- if the viewer THINKS it’s real and gets off on it, isn’t he just as much of a diseased, scum-sucking fuck as if the clips really were real?) for enjoyment and profit. Exploiting misery is as low as you can get.

45

Oh my God, Sofa King, that was so fucking funny!!

46

So what do you think I should do, oh great Space Vampire, so that I may no longer be reprehensable and repugnent? Obviously I am the scum of the earth, and I want to change so that the sexual fantasies I have had since childhood are in line with your sense of what is acceptable.

Why am I even replying to you? You’ve already seen that nice, fairly normal people- the kind of people you work with, live next to and maybe even love- sometimes have fantasies along these lines. You’ve seen that these people are not drooling evil-doers, and have no intention of ever hurting anyone in real life. You’ve seen people that have made their own amature rape porn or participated in fantasy-play and come out of the experience feeling anything but exploited. You’ve seen that this sort of thing isn’t the sole realm of men, but is enjoyed in various forms by some women (who obviously arn’t wicked rapists). You’ve seen that this sort of thing can be a somewhat strange but not undesirable component of a healthy sex life. What more can you possibly need?

There is no changeing your mind. I’ve got no more nice words to say to you.

47

Rape Porn is just what was discussed, fantasy.

Whether or not you agree with the realm, is not up to you. There is a market for this stuff and as horrible as the idea may be there are people willing to pay money to see this stuff.

Most adult webmasters get their content from reliable and known sources. Those sources also ensure that their content is obtained, filmed or photographed legally, with the consent of all involved. In fact those “teen photos” from reputable sites are not in fact teens, they are women who are 18 or older that are legally considered adults. There may be some discrepancy if an adult webmaster got their content off US soil because of the laws. They have to cover their asses on that.

While rape porn may disgust you, most thinking humans that enjoy that stuff know in the back of their head that it is fiction not reality. Again, assuming you are on a legit site.

I, for one, am one of those women that enjoy being tied up. Call me silly but there’s something about my partner being in complete control once in a while. While I currently don’t have a partner, I have had several boyfriends that either hated or loved the idea.

Lizard, I realize the idea of rape porn disturbs you, I think a lot of the porn I see (as an adult webmistress) is gross, people like it. I am a little more immune to the pictures and such now but rape is depicted in many realms and not just in porn. While porn is meant to stimulate sexual feelings, there are other places you find talking about it, seeing it and such.

It, unfortunately is a part of our world and happens more than we know. I don’t think, however, that it creates monsters out of curious men or women, into raping people. I think rape is a fantasy that seems scary to many but somehow excites them.

Does it make it right? No, and the victims of rape will tell you as much. I know that people seeing acts of what is considered a crime outside of the media can be very repulsive but people have fantasies about the strangest things. The human race is quite odd indeed.

However, the Constitution in the US does protect such things. While I do find some images disturbing, I will not ever cry out against the Freedom of Expression. As long as the creator of any type of media can prove that the people involved were consenting adults, I have no problem with it. It may be very difficult for a rape victim to understand how people could have such fantasies, but the truth is, it’s there for men and women alike. I have never considered myself a sick person, in fact I am pretty grounded but maybe some reptilian part of me is sick.

48

even sven- You don’t convince me of anything, nor do you really touch the main thrust of what I’m saying. Yes, consensual rape fantasy bugs me and I disapprove of you for engaging in it; I will admit that everyone who does it probably isn’t a total bottom feeder, but I’m not willing to call “healthy.” But people do a lot of unhealthy things in private that I don’t care about; eat until they’re grossly overweight, play Everquest for 16 hours a day, whatever. But if you read my reply, it’s not the people who engage in this stuff in private that I condemn to the bowels of hell. I can MAYBE EVEN concede that fakey rape-themed porn on SPECIALIZED sites isn’t the end of the world, though I don’t think that’s right either. But even attempting to pass rape porn off as “real” and “violent” for an audience? If you don’t think that’s wrong, go jump off the planet.

49

The people who are really sick are those who watch movies where people get killed. What kind of sick person would watch a movie full of violence where people are fighting and shooting and killing each other?

Oh, wait, that’s the definition of America.

50

Wow, Liz, what a burden. My sympathies…

51

You know Cranky, you’re right. It DOES tell me something, albeit something I already knew: that logic can be twisted to justify anything.
Here’s a few clarifications on my own position, since the debate has meandered back and forth quite a bit:
People playing out “rape fantasies” in the privacy of their own home, or even in someone else’s home, I have no problem with. If you enjoy being tied up, smacked around, burned with cigarettes, whatever.
People enjoying novels where “it starts as rape, then she ends up liking it” I have no problem with.
People taking photos of people chained down, beaten, tortured, and sexually assaulted and then advertising them to the general public as “100% Real Rapes!” I have a BIG FUCKING PROBLEM WITH!!

The more I think about this issue the more I see the logic of the child porn = rape porn moral equivalency equation. It is illegal to have any pornographic pictures of children. Can we all agree that it’s also morally wrong? (After the responses I’ve seen to this thread, I’m not taking anything for granted.) Someone earlier posited that “rape porn” is different, because kids are exploited, whereas the women in rape porn are “willing participants,” or something to that effect.
To this I will only re-iterate one of my original arguments, which is and always will be impossible to disprove: if putting “rape sex” on the net is okay, we cannot ever know when it is fake and when it is real rape portrayed. Several people have tried to fob this off with things like "it’s highly unlikely . . . " or “they’d get caught, etc.” Again, I return to child porn. Everybody knows its out there, and any one of us could probably find it with ten minutes or less of searching. Obviously, the illegality or posting the stuff and possibility of getting caught hasn’t detered the people who make this stuff. WHY should “rape porn” be any different? If kiddie porn can be posted all over the world, who is to say that pictures and video of real rapes couldn’t be? And of course, if “simulated” rape is so casually accepted, it will make it impossible to the tell the difference between the two.

On a different note, I am stunned both by the numbers of people defending this (some of the some people who were so horrified that a man once gasp killed a cute little dog by throwing it into traffic!) and by the numbers of them who are women. I guess I needn’t have wrung my hands over whether I should’ve ever supported the women’s lib movement or not. Apparently, there are all too many women out there who have no problem seeing their kind degraded, defiled, or debased for someone else’s pleasure. Heck, they even get off on it themselves! I think “disgust” doesn’t convey the enormity of what I am feeling right now.

Sorry, but I’m not soft-headed enough to think someone’s ideology, looks, or clothes say anything about the quality of their moral character. Yours, based on what you said, is clearly suspect.
I’m sure I’ll catch plenty of heat for saying that, but frankly, I don’t care. If the standards of people on this Board are so incredibly low they’d stoop (or rather, DIG) to defend things like rape porn, there’s not a whole lot of good that can be said in their defense. Sure, we can stomp our feet and jump onto our little soapboxes and cry out “who are YOU to try to enforce YOUR morality on US?” And my reply would be, I’m someone who thinks something (i.e. banning rape porn) should be done to make sure no real person is ever raped for someone’s voyeuristic pleasure, and you’re not. What does that make you?

52

Okay, thanks, you made me see there are two ways to argue this and I think that’s what happening, at lear as you and I are concerned. We are not, actually, on opposite sides of the issue because we’re approaching this differently. I think I was arguing against people who said ANYONE with this interest was a sicko (and maybe no one said this outright) . . . whereas you were arguing that anyone who produced these sorts of images for public consumption had a problem. These are different but not necessarily opposite positions.

I guess rather than being on the other side of the argument from you, I’m neutral on these people. Because I understand the appeal of (some of) those images to people, they are not as inherently troublesome or offensive to me. But I completely understand the moral questions they raise.

I guess I’ll just add that rape fantasies are (as far as I can tell from reading erotica, sex research, and this thread) common in women. That commonality goes a long way towards making me think it’s nothing to write home about. For some people, having staged photos enhance the fantasy, just like some people like looking at naked titties hey jack off instead of just imagining them. I don’ t happen to think that porn is exploitative of women (some disagree) and I don’t happen to think that staged rape scenes are sick (some disagree).

I am willing to bet (hell, from an N of 1, I KNOW) that some people who indulge in rape fantasies are repulsed by at least some of the pictures you’ve seen. Everyone has their limits/preferences. Some people get off thinking about gang rape, others by thinking about rape by huge bald mailmen. Some may get off on a pain aspect, others may only like the idea of domination and the absolution of responsibility for what is happening.

53

I’m not a fan of ‘rape porn’ and have no interest in participating in rape fantasy role-playing. But your OP, and the last quote, are just plain fucking stupid.

While I don’t dig the ‘rape’ thing, some of the things that get me off are things most others would not prefer. And I realize that it’s fantasy. It’s not real. So I don’t judge. Hey, whatever floats the boat of law abiding, consenting adults.

You do realize these are faked, right? Or do you have a cite for someone hawking actual footage of rape and torture to the general public for money?

54

#1) ARGUMENTUM AD CAPITALIZATION DOESN’T CONVINCE ANYONE!!! REALLY!!!

#2) There’s nothing wrong with playing “make-believe” with another consenting adult.

#3) The vast majority of “Rape Fantasy” on the Net, even “100% real rape” is fiction. Do you also froth at the mouth when you see a banner ad for “100% Teen-age Slut-Nymphs” featuring sad-looking 30 year olds in pig-tails and Catholic School uniforms? If the answer’s “yes”, I’d advise staying off interent porn sites: you’ll burn out your ability to froth!

#4) Since a bunch of romance novels have mild “rape” fantasies (
“Ah-ha! Now I, the Dread Pirate Roberts have captured you at last, my love, as you have captured my heart!”

“You shall never have me! My love is saved for another!” Buttercup said, though his words made her knees weak, despite herself.

“Westly? Pfagh!” He spit on the deck. “That, for your Westly! I must have you, or my heart will break!” he replied, crushing her to his side. He kissed her.

Her arms pounded against his chest trying to win release, but within seconds her resistance waned and she gave into his passion and accepted it as her own. )

can we assume you’re in favor of banning books? Do you froth at the mouth at the Harliquin Romance section of the bookstore? Do you shriek at people buying romance novels “You’re condoning rape!” ? If not, why not?

Are you telling me that you can’t tell the difference between that and a rape? (And no…I’m not even remotely interested in rape fantasy, but the hysteria and hyperbole being spewed is nauseating)

Hell, for that matter, are you consistant? You’re using exactly the same argument that the “Reverend” Don Wildmon uses against cartoons: They show violence, people can’t distinguish between imaginary violence and real violence so anyone who likes imaginary violence also likes real violence. How do you feel about Bugs Bunny cartoons?

Fenris

PS: Theryan? You are insane…you did know that, didn’t you? “All pornography involves fantasies of control and domination.” :rolleyes: That statement says a lot about you. When my old girlfriend and I decided to get a camera on a timer and take some doity pictures of us doing the nasty, who was controlling and dominating who? Seek help now.

55

[quote]

(emphasis mine)

And so would I, if I had the merest scrap of evidence to suggest that those people really WERE “chained down, beaten, tortured, and sexually assaulted” against their will. However, your reluctance to provide a cite that commercial porn purveyors do this is rather detrimental for your argument.

56

I think most of the problem is the whole advertising angle.

Watch barely-legal girls get fucked in the ass for the first time - you can TELL it hurts!!!*

Teens! Teens! Teens! All teens all the time!**

Watch girls come in from off the STREET to try out for PORN!***

She didn’t know there’d be four of us…and we SECRETLY FILMED IT!!!****

*Because you secretly believe porn actresses aren’t acting, so these girls must actually be in pain. If they’re acting, they’re not actually enjoying being fucked…and if they’re not actually enjoying it, what are you gonna fantasize about?

**With your mind filling in the blanks as “14! 15! 16!” even though intellectually you know “teen” in this sense means “18 and 19.”

***IF this is actually true and IF this made it onto the internet, you can be damned sure they signed a release. More likely, yet another crop of girls with enough acting ability to get by.

****Again, we’re assuming porn stars don’t act…because if that hot dipped-in-Nair blonde isn’t actually enjoying herself…well, you know, etc. And no girl without five acres of makeup can be a porn star. And no girl would ever ever ever willingly be the subject of a gang-bang. (Watch how many “secretly filmed” girls still pull their hair out of the way of their faces at the precisely correct angle to show off the blowjobs they’re giving. Yeah. “Secretly taped.” Uh huh.)

I believe that “100% REAL RAPES!!!” are about as real as I believe that this magic pill can increase my hudband’s ejaculate by 581% (why would he WANT to?) or that this miracle herbal drink can make his penis up to 2/3 longer and thicker, or that rubbing this special cream on my breasts will increase my boobages by two cup sizes (dear god, WHY???), or that Cheer will really make my whites whiter and my colors brighter, or that I’m a horrible parent if I don’t buy Pillsbury instant baked goods, or that there’s nothing that says “LOVE” like dropping $50 on my kids at Chuck E. Cheese, or that my baby will hate me forever if I don’t buy him Huggies in which to let loose his odorous shit.

Ad. Ver. Ti. Sing. You pinpoint your market and you whisper what it wants to hear and that’s how you make your sales. Anyone who clicks on a link that says “100% REAL RAPES!” who expects to see real rapes is about as bright as the folks who are disappointed every time they open a bottle of Snuggle and a cute little teddy bear doesn’t jump out.

Perhaps, Lizard, the target audience for those ads is not quite as clueless as you appear to be. Are your whites white? Are your brights bright? Does your family love you because you buy Pepperidge Farm cookies?

57

Yowza, Hama. I’m not a big maker of :: applause :: posts, but that laid it all out clearly and unmistakably enough that even The Ryan should be able to understand.

58

::wild applause for Hamadryad::

59

(a) Sofa King, that was absolutely beautiful. Really, what happened to punctuality among willing victims? :smiley: Though I think that you may have been set up for a fantasy about HER abusing YOU

(b) yosemitebabe and Cranky pretty much stated much of my position on this.

(c) But it’s not Opal, but Hamadryad who has pointed out what I understand causes discomfort, which is the way the material is marketed. The selling of modern on-line “extreme porn” does overemphasize the violence/“rape”/“teen” aspect – yet it’s still nothing but “bored white trash play dress-up in a warehouse set” . Ho-hum.

Yes, some of it is gross, appalling garbage and worthless, morally repugnant filth, but I’d rather spend my law enforcement tax dollars on going after REAL child-molesters, murderers, rapists, muggers and terrorists. Lots of proven “bad for you” things are legal to make and sell. Cigarettes, for instance. It is unkosher to market them to teenagers, which is not like saying they should not be made or tobacco should not be planted in the first place.
It’s not a question of “everything being OK” but as to whether if something being “not OK” merits acting to outlaw it and punish those who do it. Banning even the depiction of something evil because “someone may do it for real” is Bad Law. (we need some of our Board lawyers to drop in to explain it properly)

In the US, insofar as porn is concerned, the rules seem to be so far that if it involves (1) no real minors (2) no real injuries (3) all consenting adults, you can make it, * then take your chances with the “community standards” in a thousand counties as to whether the contents are prosecutable as obscene.* Works OK so far.
jrd
[sub]who finds even sven’s moral character quite well acquitted by the totality of her SDMB threads, and will try not to use her posts in this one to feed his own twisted sick perverted fantasies… :eek: JK![/sub]

60

hi everyone,

Married, college educated, 29 year old woman who HAS BEEN ACTUALLY RAPED checking in to express her love of rape fantasy and in fact seeing pictures of simulated rape.

Simulated rape

Simulated rape

I can’t say it enough.

And here’s what I find most interesting about rape porn vs. real rape. Rape PORN is almost always about unbridled sexual desire. It’s about “I’ve been watching you for weeks through your window and I want you baby because you’re so fucking hot”. It’s “Miss Hoity Toity snubbed me at the bar and now I’m going to show her who’s boss.”

I mean, really. It’s one step up from romance comics. It’s male domination and aggression. Fake fantasy rape is about sex. Real, violent hideous rape is about hatred and power and sometimes revenge.

Read a real book on sexual criminals sometime and look at the girls cut up into pieces and scattered around the house. Or girls with their uteruses dug out. Or ask me about being raped sometime and I’ll tell you the VAST difference between simulated rape and real rape and how I KNOW that even when they say 100% Real Rape…that it most certainly is NOT.

I also WRITE rape fantasy porn. I’m working on one right now, and in no way do I think it endorses or encourages real rape. Because it’s so stylized and sensual and the ropes are shiny white and the men are tall dark and handsome strangers and it’s so obviously fake.
just my two cents. If that makes me a raging pervert…so be it.
J