I’m an obidiah, not a jackass! Thanks for posting! I suppose your 3000+ posts allow you to bandy about these boards and say whatever you wish. Pit or no, just because I disagree with you don’t make me a jackass.
I’m sorry that I am voicing concerns that you are so uncomfortable with. I’m not comfortable with them either, but it is downright uncanny how much this is benifiting the Bush family.
I’m disteressed that so many of you, especially those I know are funny, intelligent, insightful and open minded seem to shut all the doors when it comes to these attacks.
I am sure you think this is all nonsense. Fine. With all the goings on now and with all the corruption we have seen in our past governments it is naive not to ponder the (possible) deeper meaning behind these events.
So, obidiah, do you think the Bush family was behind the faked moon landings? After all, Mission Control was in Houston, which is in Texas, and the Bushes are from Texas. The space program pumped a lot of money into the economy there.
Boy, that was clever. :rolleyes:
Let’s compare “fake moon landings” with the death of thousands of Americans! I think it is wonderful how you are able to trivialize such things.
Thanks for your input.
I’m not trivializing the deaths of thousands of Americans, you moron. I’m trivializing your interpretation of the causes behind it. I figured, if you were stupid enough to buy into the “Bush knew about the planned attacks” you might be stupid enough to buy into the “faked moon landings.” Good to know there’s a limit to your stupidity.
If you’re going to offer up a whack explanation for the events of 9/11, you have to do better than some obscure web linked conspiracy article (that appears to be satirical). Try refreshing your mind on Occam’s Razor…assuming you’re not too distracted by those black helicopters buzzing your compound… :rolleyes:
Hmm…touchy this morning. Haven’t had your coffee yet?
I DO feel better now that I know somebody out there as all the facts and can assure me:
I am, in fact, a moron
2)I do, in fact, have limits to my stupidity
3)Sauron (great name, get out much?) is aware of all the dealings of our government and assures me that I have nothing to worry about.
Whew! Thanks for putting my mind to ease, buddy.
I know you won’t bother to read the following, but I’ll put it here for shits and giggles:
<exerpts from Michael Ruppert>
Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.
September 1-10, 2001 – In an exercise, Operation “Swift Sword” planned for four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9/11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation “Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer, International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]
September 7, 2001 – Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida web site listing of Governor’s Executive Orders.]
September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/, September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]
September 10, 2001 - 4,516 put options are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT – above]
September 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10) issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take off.”
September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18, 2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/
oct152001.html. ]
It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession and, as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October 16, 2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/
magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/
sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 - www.copvcia.com/stories/
may_2001/052401_promis.html.
September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of Mohammed Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. [Source: MS-NBC, Oct. 7.]
September 11, 2001 – Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world’s largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the first plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel are located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the same location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details of insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN’s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01; Newsbytes, Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha’aretz, 9/26/01.].
September 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has never happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times.]
September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York Times, Sept. 30, 2001.]
September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This is likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the owners showed up to redeem their put options.
October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical developments.”
Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for “affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.
December 4, 2001 – Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the CIA’s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].
December 25, 2001 – Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]
January 3, 2002 – President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a special envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote op-eds in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source: Pravda, 1/9/02]
January 4, 2002 – Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a surge of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 2002.
January 10, 2002 – In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon. [Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]
</Michael Ruppert>
“one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything”
Occam’s Razor. Hmm, it seems like you are looking for a safe and secure cop out. I’m looking for the simplest explanation to fit what we know has happened while others here aren’t trying to explain anything (outside of why I am a jackass, moron, and stupid)!
When I didn’t put links people asked for CITES!
So I put some cites. Now they are “web linked” (what, I should do, mail them to you?) and conspiracy based.
What the hell do you expect!?!?!
One congresswoman has already spoken out. That really isn’t “conspiracy” anymore, pal.
So know I have put another link from a reputable
(http://www.fromthewilderness.com/about_Mike_part_one.html)
source and I’m sure that will be shouted down as well.
Occam’s razor my ass.
Oh, damn, another black helicopter. Better go hide in the bomb shettler and raise me up a militia.
obidiah, have you also run the list of amazing coincidences that link the assassinations of presidents Kennedy and Lincoln? Isn’t that way kewl?
Perhaps I’m dense, but I don’t see how much of the stuff you listed above proves anything one way or the other. (I have seen the information regarding the airline stocks trading at a high level, and I believe that’s been linked to bin Laden and his network. It’s easy to find such clues in retrospect.) However, one thing did leap out at me: Apparently it’s not Bush you should be concerned about, it’s Clinton (or, I suppose, Gore). If “Operation Swift Sword” (and, by extension, “Operation Bright Star”, since information about such exercises is usually communicated with allies) had been planned for four years, the initial work on them began at the latest in 1997, and probably earlier. So Clinton (or Gore, since Clinton knew he wouldn’t be president in 2001) handled that end of things.
I think you’re wrong on either Clinton/Gore or Bush handling this, though. I think it was the Illuminati.
Sauron:
Hmmm… I suppose your right since the Bush family never had any political clout before this presidency.
Honestly, though, at least you read my post and I am thankful. I could be very, very wrong, but I just don’t know so I’m collecting information, that’s all.
My goal here isn’t to prove a point.
So many people just dismiss anything out of hand that doesn’t “fit” into their world view. You’d think I walked in here and bitch slapped their Mom.
Finally, I think we have seen a few too many “amazing coincidences” over the years to chaulk them up to nothing more.
Perhaps it is the illuminati, friend. they are always watching.
You’ve done a masterful job of a classic conspiracy theory. Throw together a bunch of facts and suppositions with the implicit message that “they can’t all just be coincidences can they?” I’m just going to touch on the history of a couple of these factoids since I don’t have the time to debunk them all.
And if we were to look at all of the warnings of “imminent attack” that didn’t lead to shit, we’d probably crash the server.
As another poster pointed out, this actually argues against a Bush conspiracy since (a) he wasn’t president four years ago when the Operation was planned, and (b) even as president he has no control over British troops.
China was not “quickly” given membership in the WTO. China and the US reached an agreement on Nov. 15, 1999 on China’s WTO membership. The US then granted China permanent normal trade relations (PNTR) on October 10, 2000. The bill [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquerytr/D?d106:1:./temp/~bdy4MQ:@@@X“](” [url)]passed the House by a vote of 237-197 and the Senate by a vote of 83-15. This bill cleared the way for China’s accession to the WTO. But first it went to a working group at the WTO. The group hammered out the details of the accession then the WTO vote was taken. It’s absolutely amazing how Bush orchestrated the negotiations in 1999 to end just in time for everything else to go forward so that the WTO vote would happen right near a terrorist attack. Just minor delays in committee would have foiled the entire dastardly plan. Oh wait, Bush wasn’t president in 1999, was he?
This is another example of implying sinister motives because of timing. On the other hand, if it was part of a massive conspiracy, why wouldn’t he just wait until Sept. 11 to issue the order. Nobody would question it then (well, maybe I’m being optimistic about conspiracy theorists).
But, anyway, a closer look at the Executive Order shows it’s not quite such a bolt from the blue. EO 01-261 supersedes EO 01-17 which dealt with, you guessed it, the same subject matter. EO 01-17 was issued Jan. 19, 2001 which doesn’t allow for the conspiratorial whispers about the timing being “just four days before the attack”. EO 01-261 simply adds a provision allowing the National Guard to be used in port protection against smuggling and terrorism.
I found my information in about 10 minutes of searching. Instead of copying and pasting conspiracy websites you ought to do a little independent research into these events. You’ve now posted a link to a satire piece that actually pokes fun at conspiracy theorists and a list of seemingly ominous events that can be readily explained without cooking up a conspiracy theory. You’ll find plenty of criticism of the government on this board. But those same people don’t get succkered into conspiracy theories based on out of context blurbs on a website.
No, your explanation is anything but simple. The last link you provided has something to do with the LAPD, what it has to do with the topic at hand I don’t know. I still have yet to see any evidence that links Dubya to this. And yes, I’ve read through the entire articles looking for this “proof” (which is why people ask for cites, not links).
And when your so-call “unbiased” news source starts off an article with:
“Continuing her ongoing display of courage and truth telling as the lone member of Congress willing to tackle risky issues such as Cointelpro, US inspired antics in Colombia and Africa and other illegal covert operations, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, (D) GA. Has now come out as true defender of independent journalists all over the world.”
I really think you should question their impartiality.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that in 1997 or before, George, Jeb and/or Dubya Bush were hammering out the details of a military training exercise designed to coincide with a terrorist attack in 2001? And that they included the British military and NATO forces in this strategy session?
And don’t be disingenuous. You aren’t just “collecting facts.” You’ve got a conspiracy theory all thrown together here.
Forget the sky … what color is the ground in your world?
I know you think all this is unrelated. I also understand that you think this is a vendetta about George Bush. I’m not even saying he is directly involved.
“In June German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.””
Surely this is a valid source of information…German intelligence. I suppose you wouldn’t think so.
“In July three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, “Bin Laden - La Verite´ Interdite,” discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban.”
Perhaps is was just a matter of uncanny coincidence that we announced to the Taliban we would be engaging in an offensive campaign against them in October and the attacks came in September.
In August Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.
Another source that isn’t valid enough in your eyes to be taken seriously? Yeah, it is only the Russian government. What the hell do they know and why should we listen to them?
“On September 11, 2001 for 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has never happened in history.”
Nothing our of the ordinary here. Keep moving.
“On October 10, the Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical developments.””
This call about the pipeline was placed less than a month after the attacks. Less than 1 month.
I"n February 9, 2002 Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to “cooperate in all spheres of activity” including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10 million to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers."
I guess none of this seems relevant. No-one stands to profit from these events. Then there is Mike Vreeland.
“In June US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope which he gives to Canadian authorities.
On Sept 14 Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in intelligence.
On January 10 in a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon.”
I know…it was also a coincidence that Vreeland described the attacks in detail.
As I was saying before it is a lot of coincidences. But, that is all they are, coincidences. There is absolutely no reason even specualate about these events because, if nothing else, we do know this:
Human beings would NEVER hurt or kill other humans for their own profit or gain. At least we can soundly proclaim that from the hilltops. Especially in our beloved America.
Please, I beg you to disagree with that.
Are you going to address the substantive points I raised poking holes in your factoids? I don’t have the time to debunk all of your droppings, but I imagine they are of the same level of accuracy. Please specifically address how WTO negotiations that began over 2 years before the attacks constitutes a “quick” accession to the WTO. Address how Gov. Bush’s Executive Order merely amended an earlier order. Address how Bush organized British military operations years before he was in office (and you can try to disclaim accusing Bush of being involved but your link explicitly tried to tie him to it.)
I don’t really expect you to make a substantive argument because you can’t. You’re a typical conspiracy theorist who throws out a bunch of factoids then ignores contradictory evidence.
Has anyone else noticed that ‘Rep.’ McKinney is always one of the high-profile, cheek-pecking aisle-birds at Presidential Addresses? IIRC, at his first address after the WTC bombings, she managed to pull young George close enough to whisper into his ear. Now maybe she was just expressing her obvious disdain for the man and his office (smiling just for the cameras, no doubt), or maybe, just maybe, she was in on the crashes too. Hmm?
Of course I can’t prove it, but an investigation by a ‘properly assembled’ commission :winknudgewink: might come to that conclusion.
I was wrong about two of the three points you chose to debunk.
I found some interesting things on China, but upon closer examination I don’t think there is anything sinister going on…
The US alone does not determine who does or does not enter into the WTO. Because we reached an agreement with them in 1999 and granted PNTR in late 2000 we certainly helped move China towards the goal of entering the WTO. China was ushered into to the WTO rather quickly after our granting of PNTR. This came after 14 years of negotiations, not 2 years as you suggest. China then immediately denounced the Taliban even though they had signed a developement agreement with them less than a week before (Sept. 11, actually).
Why did China get voted into the WTO even after all the human rights, environmental and econimic concerns raised in the past?
“The approval of once-isolated communist China was planned to give the WTO maximum publicity and to ensure that some positive news would come out of the meeting, which has the main aim of launching a new round of trade liberalisation negotiations.”
(http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/11/10/china.WTO/index.html)
In any case the point is moot. After making my own review I have decided that you are all correct and I was erroneous in my posts…I see that a few coincidences got me all worked up. I guess it was easy to get caught up in the fervor. I don’t like Bush, certainly, but I think I was looking for a scapegoat to vent my frustrations concerning the terorrist attacks.
I am sorry to have wasted your time with this, for lack of a better word, crap.