Rereading Ice and Fire

Cafe Society
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Well, true, Howland Reed wasn’t there when Ned spoke with Lyanna, as far as we know.

However, assuming baby Jon was at the Tower of Joy, Howland obviously would know that Ned traveled there without a baby and left the tower with one. Maybe Ned could have given him the same cover story he gave others (Wylla?), but when Ned and the others kill the three Kingsguard, Ned enters the tower to talk with his sister, and then later Howland and whoever else (Ned at some point says “they” found him with his sister’s body) enter the tower and find Ned, Lyanna’s corpse, and a baby, I think that story would be a pretty hard sell.

The only other possibilities I can think of would be Wylla and Barristan Selmy. Obviously Wylla knows Jon really isn’t her kid (assuming, of course, that he isn’t), but she may or may not have any idea of whose child he really is. As far as Barristan, I don’t think he knows, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Obviously the three Kingsguard who were at the tower knew what was going on. The fact that Lyanna was pregnant couldn’t have been hidden from them, and persumably they would have been given some reason as to why they were to stay at the tower. But did Rhaegar tell anyone else what was up once he traveled back to King’s Landing or before his death on the Trident? There’s no way Jaime knows, we’ve been so far inside his head without any hint of that. But he was the rookie on the guard, Selmy had been around a lot longer. Rhaegar might have confided in him. I don’t think there’s been anything to point to it so far (and shouldn’t he have told Dany what he knew when he came clean with her about his identity if he did?), but it’s not impossible.

Anyway, back to Jon’s legitimacy and vows…

Really minor nitpick, but Aemon wasn’t a member of the Night’s Watch when he was offered the crown. He was a maester, but was still secretly offered the throne (by a great council? I can’t remember), but turned down the offer and then joined the Night’s Watch to further emphasize his refusal and to remove himself from the scene. But yeah, the maesters’ vows and the vows of the Night’s Watch are not that different. I didn’t remember that bit specifically about the High Septon, but if he could undo one, I’m sure he could undo the other. And I agree that a king could absolve a man from his vows if he was willing. For that matter, a king could make a bastard legitimate if he so chose. Damon Blackfyre was made legitimate by his father (some Targaryen king whose name I’ve forgotten). So neither Jon being a bastard (if he actually is) or his vows are an insurmountable problem.

But, at this point, I’m kinda reminded of Varys’s question to Tyrion in ACoK about the soldier and the priest, king and merchant (I think that’s how it goes). Where does the power lie? If Robb had made Jon legitimate and his heir, and absolved Jon’s Night’s Watch vows, as he discussed doing with Catelyn in ASoS, would that have been legit? Sure, to those who acknowledged the legitimacy of Robb’s reign. To the Lannister supporters, it would have been an illegal order by a rebel. Same with Stannis and Jon. Those who support Stannis or could be convinced to come to his cause would name Jon the Lord of Winterfell (if Jon had accepted it), but the Boltons and Freys and the south would have laughed at the idea.

So, I guess my point is, if Jon’s true parentage is revealed, and it comes down to who has a better claim, Jon or Dany, it’s not going to be an issue of studying the Westerosi legal code for precedent, IMO. It’s going to be an issue of: who has the power? Who can sway people to their side? And so on. A king’s orders only matter to those who accept that king. If, say, Stannis absolves Jon of his vows at some point, and then Jon finds out he’s the legitimate son of Rhaegar, and he puts forth his claim, Dany can just say that Stannis was never a legitimate king, so his orders don’t count.

Of course, I don’t think it’s ever going to come to that between them. If anything, if Dany finds out she has a nephew, I’d think she might welcome him, to continue that Targaryen bloodline, incest thing they had going. Which goes back to skeeving Kyla out. But then, when have I ever correctly figured out where this series is going.

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This is an excellent point, so Howland Reed probably knows whose child that baby was, and who Ned Stark said he was afterwards. Where is Reed now? I’m not that far in my rereading and I don’t remember.

Maybe… maybe they knew Lyanna was pregnant. I don’t think this is a safe assumption, but it seems possible.

Yeah, you’re right. I just read that part over again this morning in my rereading of ACoK. Aemon was a maester when he was offered the crown after his father Maekar died in battle. The High Septon would have let him out of his maester vows, but he said no. Aegon became king, and Aemon knew that there were those who would have tried to use him against Aegon and press his claim as king again anyway, so he joined the Night’s Watch to double his immunity to kingship. Boy, he REALLY didn’t want to be king, eh?

I don’t know if the High Septon can get a man out of his Night’s Watch vows too, but probably.

According to Mirri Maz Duur, Dany can never bear children again, right? So why would she marry Jon? She’d want him to marry someone who can give him sons, to continue the line of Dragonkings. I don’t think his wife would need to be a Targaryen (are there even any others left?). He could marry poor Myrcella to shut the Lannisters up, or the Dornish princess Ariane, who was supposed to wed Viserys. The Martells have never been very happy with what happened to Elia, Rhaegar’s wife. Maybe this is why we see so much of what’s going on in Dorne in AFfC… they’re going to get drawn into the Targaryen storyline in the future.

But like Amok, I have no idea where this is going, really.

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Okay, we’ve given up on spoiler boxes?

Regarding Jon’s vows: I predict that the necessity for the Wall will not survive the series, and the vows will become moot. I’m going to say that Bran will have something to do with this.

Regarding whether Jon or Dany would have the better claim if Jon’s really a Targaryen: I guess this depends on whether or not Jon is legitimate. If he is, he’d have the claim, because he’s a guy. If he’s not, Dany would. Either way, IMHO it’s not important because I agree that they are meant for each other (even if it skeeves me out; it’s a Targaryen tradition) and if they do wed it would be to consolidate their claims. Regardless of who Jon’s real parents are, he is already the heir to Winterfell (even if he doesn’t realize it at the moment) and could therefore rally the North should he want to. While she may be the rightful heir, she’s been raised outside of the Seven Kingdoms and is in a lot of ways a foreigner. If she married a legitimized Jon (I’m assuming that Robb’s will had a provision to legitimize Jon should he ever become lord of Winterfell), she’d have the power of the North behind her.

I also predict that even if Jon’s true parents turn out to be Rhaegar and Lyanna, it will never be a widely accepted story. It’s just too wild. Maybe Jon and a few other people would know it for truth, but I doubt Jon would ever call himself a Targaryen; I suspect he’d be pleased enough to call himself a Stark.

Another prediction: I think Arya is going to attach herself to Dany’s party, incognito, as a way to get close enough to kill some of the people on her list. Oh, I hope she kills Cersei. I want Cersei to DIE.

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So Bran the builder’s wall will be torn down by Bran Stark or at least by events he puts in motion? I can see the three dragons’ flames destroying the wall and the Others making the Crows obsolete.

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As far as I know, he’s at Greywater Watch, the capital of the Neck. I don’t think he’s left it all series. I can’t remember if Robb stopped and visited Reed on his way south in AGoT, but we’ve never seen Reed directly either way (though his daughter tells Bran a story about him in ASoS).

Well, she implies it. But I’m not convinced. I don’t have the book with me at the moment, so I can’t look up the exact wording, but as I remember it, she lists some “impossible” events that have to happen before Dany can bear another child, implying that it will never happen. But to me, this comes off as a Macbeth type prophecy. You know, Macbeth was told he couldn’t be slain by any man “born of a woman”, so he assumed that no man could kill him. But MacDuff qualified in a way. The same with Burnam Wood coming to Dunsinane. They’re both events that seem to be impossible, but both happen in an unexpected way. I have a suspicion that it’ll be the same way with Dany. The seemingly impossible events that have to happen will happen, in a clever and not completely literal way.

One thing I’m wondering about, is how much does Dany know about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Someplace early in Dany’s chapters in AGoT I remember her saying that Rhaegar died at the Trident for “the woman he loved” or words to that effect. She must be referring to Lyanna, because Elia would make no sense in that context (the war wasn’t fought over her, after all). Of course, Dany would know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were the cause of the war (more or less), but the prevailing view in Westeros seems to be that he kidnapped her. Or at least that’s the story we get from Robert. But Dany seems to have heard, I guess from Viserys, that Rheager loved Lyanna. What else did Viserys know? He was just a boy when the war was fought, if I remember correctly. Is it possible that he knew Lyanna was pregnant? There’s been no hints of it, and he’s dead now. Hmm. We’ve never been given any indication that Dany knew there was a child, and that’d be a pretty big thing to hold back, given how much we’ve seen through her viewpoint. But if she assumed the child was dead, I suppose there’d be no reason for her to think of it. Either way, she wouldn’t know who the child is now.

Anyway, I doubt she knows about a child, but it’s interesting to speculate about what she does know exactly.

There is that. I mean, right now we have someone (probably Sansa’s friend Jeyne) trying to pass herself off as Arya. And fake pretenders have been a feature of our own history. (How many girls/women claimed to be Anastasia?) How would Jon ever be able to prove it? Even if Howland Reed stepped forward and claimed it was true, I’m sure there would always be doubters. Dany has the advantage, at least, that no one is likely to doubt that she is who she says she is.

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So I just finished A Feast for Crows today. What I am thinking the most about is the conversation that false Pate**[sup]*[/sup]** had with Samwell. Would the Maesters want to do in the Dragons? Did they really rid the world of them once? It fits with them focusing on science and Dragons and their flames being inexplicable. OTOH, this false Pate may only be saying it to keep knowledge of Dany and the Dragons from the Maesters. If he is a faceless man sent to kill her, then it would make sense that he would want no Maesters to go to help her.

**[sup]*[/sup]**Makes me think of dentures.