Catelyn was crazy when she kidnapped Tyrion Lannister in AGoT, and mean as a snake when you were on her bad side, as Jon Snow knew. I wonder if she’ll pass her life on to Brienne?
Well, there might be others, but the main one that I can think of off the top of my head is Robb in the west in ACoK. He defeats a Lannister host (at Oxcross? I don’t remember exactly), raids in the west, sets a trap for Tywin that doesn’t come about (and the blame for that can go either to Robb or Edmure, take your pick), is injured and is finally tended to by Jenye Westerling. And we know how that turned out. So that was a major plot development that we don’t see as it happens, but rather only get reports on and some elements are sprung on us by suprise (Robb’s wedding, and his plan for luring Tywin west).
A lot of the battles do happen offscreen, for which I am glad. We really don’t need a blow-by-blow description.
I’m re-reading ASoS now. I’m still trying to judge whether Tywin hatched the plot to bring Robb down before or after Robb married Jeyne. Did Sybell Westerling send word to Twyin saying “Hey, the Wolf’s hanging out at our place right now, but if we can get Jeyne to sleep with him he’d really be screwed; whaddya think?” Or did Tywin hear about Robb’s marriage to Jeyne and contact the Westerlings with a way to escape the fate of the Reynes and Tarbecks? The thing is, I don’t really see why he’d need the Westerlings to be part of his plotting if he’d come up with it after Robb had already married Jeyne. Then all he’d need to do is contact Lord Frey and plot with him. Am I overlooking something?
I’d say after. The Westerlings weren’t involved in the planning of the Red Wedding, as far as I can tell. In fact, I believe it’s mentioned in AFfC that one of them died there, who didn’t know about it, and Sybell mentions that if she knew what was going to happen, she never would have let him go.
Tywin only needed Sybell Westerling (and I think only she and maybe her brother, Ralph Spicer(?) were in on it) to keep Jeyne from getting pregnant. With Brandon and Rickon (persumed) dead, Tywin had Robb’s heir, Sansa, in custody. So with Robb dead the northern lords would have no one to rally to. But if Jeyne (who was staying at Riverrun and thus wouldn’t be in danger of being killed or captured at the Red Wedding) bore an heir, that would change. It would be an important symbolic reason for the north to keep fighting. Tywin wanted to prevent that.
So, I imagine Tywin, after hearing of the wedding, and knowing that it would really piss off Lord Frey, contacts Sybell Westerling (and he must have had some idea of her character from being her husband’s leige lord, and figured she’d be much more open to a plot than her husband) and tells her something like “Hey, you know me, I’m going to win this fight; they don’t sing the ‘Reynes of Castamere’ all the time for nothing. And since your family is traitors, it’s going to be especially bad for you. Unless you help me out. All you have to do is keep your daughter from baring a child, and you’ll be rewarded when the war is over.”
I doubt he told her anything about the Red Wedding or how they specifically planned to get to Robb. The Westerlings didn’t play any part in that, and they didn’t need to know. I imagine he only talked with Lord Frey about that, and Frey somehow managed to bring in Roose Bolton.
Which isn’t to say Lady Sybell might not have pushed her daugther into Robb’s bed (or assigned her to tend to him with that in mind), but I doubt it was part of any bigger plot, just normal scheming to make a good marriage for the girl.
So, the next quesion becomes…do the Lannisters have any chance in hell of suriving, or has Cersei wrecked absolutely everything?
It seems they would have had a chance with Tywin dead…if they had Tyrion. Which they don’t, of course. If they still had Jaime (and the might) they’d at least have a legendary leader to bring them hedge knights looking for a winning cause.
It’s possible that Kevan will come to King’s Landing, take over as Hand (now that
Cersei is at least somewhat out of the picture), and straighten things out for Tommen. Or he might not - after all, it seems to me that he’s given up on the family in disgust. I could even see him helping out Dany since his family has gone to hell and nobody could stand up to them. May as well hand everything back to the Targaryens.
They don’t seem to have any money any more. Seems to me that their strenghths were their gold and Tywin’s brains and fearsome reputation.
I only really care, of course, because I like Tommen and don’t want to see his head on the end of a spike - presumably right next to Ser Pounce’s head. 
-Joe
There’s been some talk of Tyrek Lannister still being alive. Maybe Varys means to keep House Lannister alive through him, since Cersei seems done for, Jaime is also probably doomed (no way Dany is keeping him alive), and Tyrion doesn’t seem destined to raise a family with Sansa. Or maybe their House is just doomed.
As for the Red Wedding, halfway into ASoS, I’ve decided that Amok must be right. Tywin must have contacted the Westerlings after he heard Robb was married (or maybe they contacted him), but it was a plot seperate from the Red Wedding - that was Frey’s idea, from what I can gather. Tywin implies Frey came to him with the plan and he accepted. Stupid Frey. I hate Frey more than I hate Littlefinger, and that’s saying something.
I think Cersei is done for, and Jaime is on tenious ground. But Kevan and the cousins… Davon? I forget if that’s his name, but he was at Riverrun in AFfC, and I think there’s another one too, who got appointed castellian while Davon was made Warden of the West. Anyway, they may survive.
So my big question is… in a midieval society, how does Cersei know that there are thousands of sperm in an ejaculation?
I just realized that Tyrion, Daenerys, and Jon Snow all have something in common:
Each of their mothers died in childbirth.
I don’t know if this is significant, or how, but it does seem to be a circumstance that links them all together.
The maesters seem to be pretty sophisticated in a lot of things scientific. I could see them having microscopes - after all, they have kind of figured out penicillin.
Good thinking! It’s been suspected by many that they could be the 3 heads of the dragon. Definitely something to tie them together, anyways.
-Joe
That’s assuming that Jon’s mother is
Lyanna. Which I definitely believe, but that’s not certain yet.
I guess I missed that part, but that’s why I’ll be rereading them when Amazon ships them sometime next year (I’ve only listened to audiobook versions so far).
So… the dragon horn… real or not? If it’s not, then what is it? It seems to have a one-time only effect on the blower. If it is real, ust what kind of effect will that have on Dany’s plans?
Do you think Littlefinger’s aside that he had hope to have four or five years before making his next major move (but Cersai was ruining the kingdom much faster than he anticipated) is a little self-jab by Marten? Since the next book takes place at the same time as A Feast for Crows… will there be a time gap at some point? It almost feels like there should be: Dany needs to develop a power base, the dragons need to grow up, Bran needs to learn (from his uncle?), Sansa needs to develop her Littlefinger skills, Arya needs to be less blind with a more malliable face (but still have Needle, to keep her a Stark), Sam needs his chain, and other stuff that needs to happen over a long period of time and that I really don’t feel the need to read about.
I was thinking about Breanne’s “last” word: I too though it might be “Arya”, but have come to the conclusion that if it was a name, it would have said “said a single name”, not a “single word”. Now I have no idea what that word might be, especially if it would actually let Coldheart let her go. There’s a reason she has that name, after all.
You know though, that’s par for the course in fantasy. I don’t see anything in that. (Although lord knows I’ve been wrong a lot in the past.)
The bit of symbolism I am partial to is that Jon and Dany each have as a companion their house sigils. (Well, Jon isn’t technically a Stark, but y’all know what I mean.) And direwolves and dragons were both considered to be pretty much extinct.
On Jon’s mom:
[spoiler]Way earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that if Jon really was the son of Rhaegar, then he would be the rightful heir. Not so: he’d still be a bastard and Dany would still rank above him. Also, Dany is the daughter of Aerys, which, if this theory is correct, would make her Jon’s aunt.
I’m a little skeeved out by this thought.[/spoiler]
On Jon’s bastardy:
There has been speculation that Rhaeger married Lyanna before he did her. After all, some Targaryens had more one spouse.
The penicillin reference is one I caught only this around, but maesters mention treating wounds with bread mold. Sounds like penicillin, or something close enough to it.
True, that’s a possability. But given Jon’s Night’s Watch vows, technically he has renounced any birthright to anything, including stuff he doesn’t know about. Maybe that could be gotten around, but it’s an argument that Dany has the stronger claim even if Jon was legitamate.
You never know - it could be “Underfoot” or something.
Either way, I just don’t LIKE it.
She said “Yes” or “Sword” - Breanne’s character, who cares about honor and nothing but, has now become a totally different person when death was on the line. Of course, she didn’t bother turning away when she was faced with death all those OTHER times…
She said “Arya”. In that case, there’s no reason to believe that Arya is alive, just that she died at Saltpans rather than King’s Landing.
I can’t find one that isn’t all around illogical or dissatisfying.
I think it was made pretty clear that a King (ie. Stannis) can make someone legitemate - remember, Stannis wanted to do it to make Jon a Stark and therefore put the North in Stannis’s corner.
Presumably a King can also undo the Night’s Watch vows - otherwise, making Jon the Lord of Winterfell wouldn’t have accomplished much.
-Joe
A member of the Night’s Watch can be relieved of his vows by the High Septon. Aemon Targaryen was offered the crown after all the other heirs died, but he passed it up and it went to Aegon the Unlikely (4th son of a 4th son). Thus, Jon Snow, [spoiler]were he to be considered Rhaegar’s heir (like, if Rhaegar had secretly married Lyanna Stark), could be released to take the throne.
My question is, how will it ever be discovered that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Seems like everyone who would know is dead now. Any ideas?[/spoiler]
Too damned many spoiler boxes.
To answer your question, there was one other guy at the Tower when Lyanna died - the only one other than Ned to survived the battle against the 3 Kingsguard. I can’t think of his name, but I seem to recall that it was the Crannogman Lord.
Seeing as how Robb sent two of his people up TO the Crannogmen as part of his grand strategy before the Red Wedding…I suspect that’s how we’ll come into things.
Assuming that arc goes anywhere, of course.
-Joe
His name is Howland Reed. His kids are the ones with Bran. And yes, he was at the Tower of Joy.
Yes, he was there, but I didn’t think he was with Eddard and Lyanna when they last spoke, before she died. There’s no reason to believe he knows the truth of that situation, whatever it is. However, I guess Martin could have Reed be in the know on this, because I can’t think of how else it’d come out… unless the dragons can sense it or something.