Rhapsody -- Thanks, we were fresh out of Homophobes

The BBQ Pit
41

Poly -

Thanks you for confirming that there IS a distinction, and that rationalism (may/almost always does) outweigh religious conviction.

However,

Are there limits to appropiateness of religious dictates?

I say, yes, if your religion requires you to condemn another human because of who they are (through no choice of their own), then it is not only inappropiate for you to voice that conviction, it is obscene to do so.

There are those who believe that Allah requires the slaughter of just about all non-Muslims (and, to hear some of them tell it, many Muslims as well). Are we to allow such opinions in civilized debate? Yes, probably. Are we to give them any credence? Not in this lifetime.

Why would Lev. outweigh the Koran? (old transliteration, I know).

So why should some folk’s interpretation of Christianity dictate civil law and/or custom?

42

Ace I ripped into you in another thread for some comments, seemingly in defense of the bigots that you thereafter clarified as a mistake. I never replied, partly because I didn’t quite understand what your point was and wasn’t certain that I trusted your retraction, it sounded a bit like backpedaling. Meanwhile I am starting to see your gist, it’s probably well intended, but it won’t work.

In effect you are doing the equivalent of asking someone with red hair to not be so obvious about being a redhead and especially to not react with so much animosity when taunted about it, because it doesn’t serve the purpose of getting redheads accepted like they should. I can’t even parse the sentences that I just used to express that opinion, let alone try to understand what I meant that you mean without suspecting that it is in some subtle way a condemnation of redheads.

As someone who prefers to usually not discuss my sexual orientation, while it is fairly obvious when you meet me that I am not exactly straight as fiddle, I can tell you that it’s sort of a waste to ask us to not be so obvious about what we are. In fact it doesn’t matter what gender my current date is, most people always just take for granted (correctly) that I fish on both sides of the boat or that I am gay, even if I am not very effeminate. I’ve been told a million times; “Gosh, don’t be so Gay when you’re laughing. You giggle. It’s a cliché you know and it won’t help getting you guys accepted,” by people that know. Can’t tell you how many times I have been told by girls that I asked out on a date or people that saw me with someone for the first time and it happened to be a girl; “Gosh, I always thought you were gay.” Same thing goes for many girls that are perceived to be “too butch.” Then again I know many of homo/bisexual people that are just average or even seemingly straighter than Robin Hoods favorite target arrow.

In the end the fact is that you’ll just have to accept us as we are and if some of us are Pride Parade types, or like me pretty much mum about the whole thing, that’s none of your business.

I appreciate that you make the effort of ripping into little pissheads like Rhapsody though.

Sparc

43

He just hasn’t got the guts to admit it yet. Don’t blame him though. I would be embarrassed too.

44

You know all this talk about how “normal” or natural homosexuality is, is just so much tripe. Pedophiles also experience a “natural” and “normal” sexual appetite for children (at least as “normal” as homosexuality is), but I will never accept that practice either. It is a derangement/abberation. If you feel insulted by that then that is YOUR problem to deal with. I am not hostile toward gays and know many but I will never accept it as “normal” behavior. It simply isn’t and all your pissing and moaning isn’t going to change that fact.

45

This thread was going along so interestingly, with really good arguments, apologies, explanations, defenses…

and then you Rhapsody. Good work. You’re really a credit to your cause.

Why don’t you just go poke beehives with sticks?

46

Fluiddruid, Gobear came off a lot more than angry. He admits as much – he’s a rabid zealot when it comes to these issues. And if things make him angry on a web site, he always has the option of just skipping over it. It’s not mandatory, y’know.

Sparc, your post rather ranges far afield, but I do thank you for at least attempting to see my position. No, I don’t care if you’re gay. And no, I haven’t stated my sexual preference (Homebrew take note) on these boards. And I do understand that there is still homphobic prejudice, but forgive me if I fail to see how that gives you the right to take out your grievances on a third party.

No one is asking Gays to be less Gay in this and the related threads. They’re saying, try to be less fundamentalist, less black and white in your thinking. On a web site devoted to eradicating ignorance and advancing intelligent debate, no factual, cited, intelligent debate should be arbitrarily censored.

I would say the same thing if we were arguing about Religion, baseball, or the best cheeses, and the limburger contingent kept attempting to short out the debate. Honestly, there’s a lot of flaws and facets in the gay community that would make for interesting discussion, but we can’t have any because the children prevent us with disreputable tactics like ban-begging.

Trust me on this. I would feel the same way on any subject you could name.

As for the homophobe/intelligent criticism schism, Rhapsody’s indeed a pisshead, and yet UncleToby isn’t even in the same ballfield. I doubt that they would even agree with each other – One had thoughtful cites and was polite, and the other, well, wasn’t. Why are they treated the same?

47

Hmm, you made some good points there. I agree that you’re a cretin and a troll, (which the moderators will no doubt make you soon aware of) but I’m not sure I believe that you’re typing with your penis. Cite?

Oh, and you might check the rules of the board. Deliberately stirring the pot to get a response is known as Trolling and gets you a swift kick back to the AOL chat rooms, before you make either your 100th post or hit puberty. We’ll all be crying with loss, I can assure you.

48

Is telling you to fuck off normal behavior? 'Cause I sure feel like doing it. But doing anything that’s not normal must be bad.

49

Point taken Ace. I see more clearly what you are getting at now and I think you have a point, especially as regards “the children.” I think the problem was that some of the stuff you’ve said came across as asking people to be less gay - even if that wasn’t your intention.

As I said I usually don’t talk about it myself, I guess I am sort of gender blind and statistically speaking I’m more likely to be found with a girl than a boy and it’s just easier to not confront people when you don’t have to. One foot in the closet and one out of it. It always comes back to that whole trust issue given the usual reactions - it’s actually quite awkward for me to say what I am saying here, but the last day’s debacle series in all these threads has gotten me thinking about things that I usually just shrug off and walk away from, so it had to be said.

Sparc

50

Polite only gets you so far. If I sit here ennumerating to Fenris all the ways I agree with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the fact that I do it without calling him any names in no way alleviates the deadly insult implied in the ideas I’m expressing.

I also disagree with your interpretation of Gobear’s behavior in the other threads.

51

Ace, the fact that you fail to see the lack of reason in Uncle Tobys posts speaks volumes.
Just because someone is slightly more well spoken than an idiot like Rhapsody doesn’t make their views valid if they are based on flawed reasoning.

52

As has been said time and time again to refute this lame defense of bigotry, pedophelia and homosexuality are fundamentally different because homosexuality is sex between consenting individuals. Children cannot give informed consent. If you are going to make an analogy and have that be the sole basis for your argument, at least make it an appropriate one.

**

Frankly, I doubt that blatant ignorance is all that insulting to most folks here. It is rather infuriating to see it rampant, nonetheless.

**

Oh, really? How do they like it when you tell them how unnatural and perverse their behavior is?

Wait, I know – I bet you don’t. I really doubt you have the courage to defend your views outside anonymous settings and amongst people who are just as bigoted as you are.

I’m afraid calling a person deranged because you do not agree with their choice in a consensual sexual partner or romantic interest is a hostile act.

**

I don’t see any facts in your posts. I see many opinions, and one analogy. You have said that being gay is abhorrent. Ok, then. Why? Why is homosexuality abnormal? What do you mean by normal? (It’s obvious that homosexuality is a part of human behavior, so why is it not classified as normal? Normal compared to what?)

In short, where’s your beef? You can have know all the gay people you want, but if you come in with guns blaring saying being homosexual is an awful, unnatural thing, the least you could do is explain your reasons rather than attacking your opposition.

53

Does… does that mean we’re not going steady anymore?

54

fluiddruid, as much as I appreciate your cogent and eloquent arguments, I hope you don’t think they’ll do much good in this case. I think rhapsody is one of those poor unfortunates that not only is convinced of his own infallibility, but takes pride in his inability to assimilate new information that might affect his opinions.

If he was to actually pay attention to any of the facts in this debate, then he’d be forced to examine his fallacious assumptions; if he was to do that, he might find he was incorrect, and had been adamantly defending blatantly ignorant arguments. And if he discovered that, then he might have to take a look at why gay people upset him so much. And he might not like what he sees.

55

Children also often expressly do not give consent, or they have no idea what is happening to them and are ashamed, as if they did something wrong to deserve the barbaric things done to them by pedophiles.

The OP might be better served to playing with toasters than posting here, as the latter only wastes the toaster’s time.

56

Two clarifications:

I was talking about crapsoddy and not Ace in my post. I had forgotten that Ace’s was the OP;

Find: latter. Replace with: former.

57

Ace0Spades, when you’re (incorrectly) accusing someone of calling you a troll, and asking them to please stop it, for this is a practice much frowned upon by the moderators, just how seriously do you think those same moderators are going to take you when you then accuse someone else of being a troll, a couple of posts down?

Also, you seem to be very aware of what the moderators are thinking, given your certain stance in this regards. I wouldn’t be so sure, if I were you.

58

Coldfire, the first paragraph to which you refer is silly – to what am I agreeing? – the second is a warning. I thought it rather neat, but I can see your view.

I can only hope the Mods take me seriously when I am serious and not so much when I’m being silly to people who deserve silliness. I’d hate to have to be serious all the dang time, I’d get a frickin’ ulcer.

59

Miller, since when did I become an advocate for politeness? Do you see me going around being all nicey-nice, here? :slight_smile:

You IGNO… oh, you get the point.

I’m saying that UncleToby and Jersey Diamond were not assholes in those threads, regardless of what one might think of their opinions, and certainly deserved better than the tactics of (sigh) strawmen, mischaracterisation, ad hominem attacks, pitting, and then ban-begging. Where was ‘rude’ in that list? Nowhere. Disreputable tactics, dis-rep-u-table.

I also think that the assumption of offensive opinions on a web site are a hostile environment is bunk. Rank bullshit. It’s optional reading. Op-tion-al. Just like Homebrew when he left the Advocate around the office, nothing here need affect you, unless you let it. If you get angry at somebody once, fine. If you find yourself embroiled in angry threads with them constantly to the point where you find the existence of their opinions hostile, you’ve forgotten a key fact:

THE SDMB IS NOT REAL LIFE

You can always turn it off. Something you can’t do, if the opinions come from, say, your Dad. It’s different, ok? If you’ve lost that perspective, maybe you need a break, or at least a different forum.

Just one man’s opinion,

Ace

60

I’m starting to grow weary of trying to explain this to you Ace. For some reason, though, I want to know why you continue to mischaracterize my responses in so many threads.

I began each interaction with Uncle Toby, JeseryDiamond, His4ever, etc. trying to refute their claims with either their own scriptures or with science. It is true that some posters immediately go into attack mode. If you’ve paid any attention to the debate, then you would have noticed that both gobear and I have been called “Uncle Toms” for trying to debate rationally with these bigots. In fact I started a GD thread to discuss whether bombastic attack or calm dialogue was best, and I argued for calm debate. Jeez, it’s hard to be a moderate.

These idiots only end up in the Pit after repeatedly proving themselves unwilling to engage in real dialogue and continuing to spew forth their opinions as fact without citing a single scientific reference or bothering to respond intelligently to question posed to them. Taking a Humpty-Dumpty stance and claiming that words mean what you want despite using them incorrectly and despite their inflammatory connatations doesn’t work. Nailing yourself to the cross and claiming martyr status just because one or two posters are shrill, doesn’t give your opinion any credence.

You keep saying they were not assholes and didn’t deserve being Pitted. But they did not enter the debate honestly. They did not respond to challenges. They did not provide citations. They did nothing but repeat their position ad nauseum and shout “strawman” to every rebuttal.

I admit I sometimes use gratuitous insults while in the Pit. But once a poster has been taken to the Pit, they’ve usually already earned the insults.

And, BTW, I fuckin’ do take note: