Just out of curiosity, who’s the asshole again? Rhapsody or Ace0Spades? I’ve lost the focus of this debate.
There is one thing I’m kinda curious about. Where exactly is one’s personal views welcome here in the Straight Dope? I do not agree with Rhapsody’s statements (but the monkey mango thing was funny), but there are plenty of people out there who do hold to the opinion that anal sex/oral sex/and sex between women is “not natural.”
One of my closest friends is a lesbian. She came and stayed with my family once a while back, and my mom absolutely adores her. She’s cute, she’s smart, and she’s fun, and considerate (my mom REALLY liked that). But, talking with my mom later on about homosexuality, my mom expressed that she doesn’t see homosexual sex as “normal.” for her, it just doesn’t fit in her views of the world and of sex. She loves Rita as a person, but just can’t view her sexual activity as “normal.” Every day I find a few more little beliefs of my mom I see as archaic and bigotrious (is that a word?), but she’s old, set in her ways, and nothing I say will change her mind. I’m glad to think myself more “enlightened,” but I have to hold to the fact her beliefs are her beliefs. Rhapsody deserves the same respect, no? As do all of us that have differing views. If you’re pissed because he made the statement of personal belief as fact in the Great Debates, that’s fine, rip him a new one for that. But sitting here calling him a troll for stating a belief he has is just wrong. Everyone who shouts at him saying “You’re just an asshole who won’t see he’s wrong” is doing the exact same thing in believing that their beliefs are just as “infallible”.
You don’t have the same beliefs? Fine. You want to open a thread in the pitt and call him a bigot and a homophobe? Fine. I’ll even back you up on those ones. But just because he has as much difficulty wrapping his mind around the concept of homosexual sex as “normal” as he does wrapping his lips around a cock is no reason to accuse him of being a troll.
As for Ace0Spades, you yourself mentioned you and gobear shouldn’t bog down this thread with your own little debate. He’s gone, how come you’re still pissing and moaning in this forum? Start a new thread.
Oh for fucks sake! Some of you are behaving as if we are talking about innocent little quirky opinions and that we should respect those. Does it completely escape the defenders of bigotry that these ‘harmless’ opinions are used as basis to beat people, willfully imprison people, and even kill people? I know (or at least I am nearly fully certain) that the posters herein are not those same people, but these same opinions are the ones that are used as an excuse.
Misguided old foggy ladies I have a whole boatload of in my family. I do as El Elvis and just humor them while mildly pointing out that such claptrap isn’t the most kosher thing to say these days.
But we’re not talking about them, they are old and innocuous enough for us to just leave them be and let them live out their last days in delusion. We’re talking about people that are in the generations that will continue to influence the world as part of the public opinion for yet some generations. We are talking about people who obviously do not mind expressing their opinion in public. We are talking about people that through their misguided good intent or inability to rise above their own narrow-minded worldview are unintentionally, or worse, condoning oppression, politics of segregation and murder.
Start realizing something folks. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of responsibility. Each time you are speaking up for the oppressor’s viewpoints you’re making yourself guilty of their crimes.
Ace, wouldn’t you find it a wee bit suspicious if the only time the ACLU ever spoke up in defense of poeple’s opinions was in relation to Klan members burning crosses?
When you rate the opinions of evil, hateful bigots above the opinions of those they would oppress; when you specifically ignore the fact that there is no- in fact can be no rational defense of their beliefs; when you accuse those who have debated rationally with the irrational of censorship- you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
I would and I don’t; I haven’t and they weren’t; I do it plenty and I’m the best man I can be. Here’s your mirror back. Tell me what you see. Are you the sort of person who agrees with the murderers-by-proxy argument?
Legally speaking yes, as long as they do not express them in certain cases. Free speech has some pretty clear limitations even in the US. The most obvious being amongst other that anything that instigates to violence, oppression, or murder is unlawful in most democratic countries. People haven’t skated over that line in here, not yet anyway.
Now it’s my turn to talk morals I guess. IMHO it is immoral to support bigotry in any way. In difference to the moral opinions forwarded by the straight supremacists this does not attack what they are or do unto themselves, only what they think about others. While they attack what we are and actions that have no victims, the opinions I criticize them for are, well yes, opinions and they do have victims.
Thank you for your compliment and your concern. I know I am wasting my time with rhapsody, but I hate to see such obviously flawed and hateful arguments go unchallenged. After all, there are a lot of people who read these posts, and I would like to provoke thought whenever possible.
If rhapsody is fine with having a dishonest debate of fly-by one-liners and is unwilling to defend his stance, that’s ok. I’d just like to make sure that it’s known that this is exactly what he’s doing.
Besides, I enjoy fighting ignorance. Call it a hobby…
Sparc: Religion has been used to justify many hideous things. On the other hand, we have Polycarp and dreamer. Immoral to support violence, or right-stripping, yes. But people who suffer from the ick factor aren’t guilty of anything.
I suffer from the ick factor about some things, but I know better than to condemn anyone for it. I would never go further than to say that I would just not like to do that sort of thing. As for witnessing and seeing things, society has pretty clear rules. Kissing un public is OK, full on sex is not. Obviously we might not all be happy about public display of affection (heterosexual or homosexual), but you know, consensus has to rule on this one and it has to be equal for all people, and if you’re unhappy about that you just have to shut up and take it anyway.
What I am speaking up against is speaking out in judgment, or justifying that it is aright to be homophobic. Saying that one finds two guys sucking each other’s cocks repulsive isn’t condemnation, saying that one thinks that it “smacks of mental illness” or that it is “an abomination” is, and is thus not acceptable.
I’ll remember the beer offer when I am in your parts next!
Meanwhile our friend Rhapsody is at it again…
I couldn’t care less about dragging the drooling moron himself into any repartee on this. What I wonder though is if it’s worth debating members that do that kind of thing or if we are better off without them?