Well, I was responding to Brutus, who was implying that someone moving for purely economic motives was “base,” and shouldn’t be respected for it. I think Ryan is kind of creepy, but I wasn’t talking about him.
Daniel
What the fuck have you been smoking? Did it not occur to you that, while companies are not people, they are, in fact, made up of people and are subject to human laws. Birds, whales, comets, etc. are not even similar, and are not subject to the same levels of human reasoning as human individuals and members of companies are. If that’s the best you’ve got, you’re looking pretty lame.
Why “parents”? Why not “people”? Is it necessary to have children before attempting to seek out opportunities for a better life? If so, i guess i’m fucked and should just give up now.
As far as i can tell, no-one in this whole debate has shown that the actions of the immigrants under discussion have been “detrimental” to the host country, except in the minds of a few xenophobes.
Well, first of all, the issue under discussion here is not a legal one. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that immigrants should be allowed to break the law. So, red herring or straw man? Take your pick.
As for respecting the customs, i think you and some others are confusing respect with emulation. I can have respect for a particular cultural practice while having no wish to emulate that practice. I still don’t see how immigrants maintaining some of their own cultural practices in any way impinges upon my own culture. This is not some sort of zero-sum game, where every non-assimilating immigrant equals a commensurate decline in American (or British, or wherever) culture.
Also, you are acting as if there is some sort of pure, unadulterated, timeless “culture” in the host nation, and that the selfish, non-adaptive immigrants come in and ruin it. What this fails to appreciate is that, to the extent that such host countries have a culture, that culture is one that is constantly in transition, and is partly the result of different waves of immigration.
I have no clue how you got that out of my response (well, actually I have an inkling), but if you say so.
I was simply pointing out that adopting one’s host countrie’s culture wasn’t considered a requirement by those who moved to America. While you might be fond of killing people who are different from you (whether they moved into your country or you to their’s, as I can’t tell what the hell you’re getting on about), it’s certainly not my style, so stop projecting.
Nothing that’s not legal in Amsterdam. Companies are not made up by people. Companies are legal structures owned by people. The people working there are temporary, always on the way in or out. A company in California moving to China does not generally take with it its American workers, that’s normally the whole point of moving.
If you just got fucked you’ve got it made and have no reason to seek a better life
Parents, people, men and women, girls and boys. It’s all the same to me. I used the parents because somebody was talking about family. So shoot me.
Well that wraps it up nice and tidy for you. Those I agree with: fine upstanding people. Those I disagree with: xenophobes.
I did bring up the part with “re-education” trips. Beyond that I mentioned:
Arranged and forced marriage.
Equality of the sexes.
Education for all.
Religious tolerance.
Freedom of expression.
Participating in society.
Sexual tolerance.
No more anti-Semitism.
No more FGM.
No honour killings.
No more homophobia.
No dancing in the streets in celebration of terrorist attacks in New York.
No demonstration in support of killing Salman Rushdie.
No demonstration in support of Bin Laden
All of which are not against the law per se. (well a few is) but are, I think, detrimental to the country.
. . . .
I do not mind immigrants holding on to some of their customs, I mind them holding on to customs incompatible with the society they move to when that society is mine. And I especially object to them requiring me to change my customs in directions I do not like to accommodate their customs.
I do not believe in some unalterable eternal culture. I’m talking of the culture we have now, which I do think is real and not malleable in the infinite.
Well that’s really very simple.
DMC:
Immigrants: Yanks
Aboriginals: Indians.
Result => Indian massacres.
Ryan:
Immigrants = Moslems
Aboriginals = Brits.
Result => Brit massacres.
That’s a straightforward projection. Which I used to show I did not think your comparison was any good. And why do you feel a need to point out that the immigrants to America didn’t adopt to the host country? What’s your point? They sure didn’t adapt, and the Indians sure are a great deal worse off for that. As far as they are at all. The only thing we could learn from this, were there any comparison – which I don’t think there is, is that the immigration to England should stop immediately.
Yeah you got me there, I simply love that. Yes very fond of it. Noting beats a killing a few people who are different from me – well except killing a lot. Yummy! I’m loving it.
You do realize, don’t you, that “arranged” and “forced” are not the same thing?
Well, if equality of the sexes truly exists in Denmark, then i applaud that develpment. Let me assure you, however, that such equality is still rather chimeric in many countries targetted by immigrants, including the UK and the USA.
As far as i’m aware, most western countries have laws making education mandatory up to a certain age level. If immigrants try to flout these laws, they will, presumably, be brought to account.
Again, if such really exists in Denmark, kudos. Interestingly, though, in countries like the UK and the USA, those who seek to keep out the non-assimilating immigrants often support their arguments with sentiments of extreme religious intolerance. Check out the sentiments of the BNP, or some American Christian fundamentalist groups.
What the hell does that mean? Am i not free to be a hermit and keep to myself, shutting myself off from the rest of society? What sort of participation, exactly, are you calling for? Participation in bake sales? Opera membership?
And once again, while northern European countries might have developed a reputation for such tolerance, it is singularly lacking in many parts of most western countries.
Punishing thought crimes now? I dislike anti-Semitism and homophobia intensely, but we should forbid only the acts that arise from such things, not the thoughts themselves. If some moron wants to spout off about “kikes” or “fags,” i’ll reserve the right to call him an idiot and have nothing further to do with him, but i don’t advocate deportation. Of course, if he acts on his hatred and commits an act of threat or violence, that’s a different matter, and one to be taken up by the legal system.
And again, anti-Semitism and homophobia are doing just fine here in the US, unfortunately. A few more immigrants here or there won’t change that very much.
Don’t know what that acronym means.
Exactly which society where immigrants might want to go countenance homour killings? Does Denmark permit them out of “cultural sensitivity”? Does the UK, or the US, or France? Thought not.
I can’t remember if this irony, or hypocrisy. Help me out.
Support for freedom of expression means nothing unless you support it for viewpoints that you find repugnant.
It’s yours? Congratulations. And is it you who makes the decision about what is and is not compatible?
Exactly which of your own customs would you be required to change?
It’s no use arguing with Rune, since he tipped me off so nicely with this:
I was very happy to find out the Dansk Folkeparti (The Danish People’s Party) has an English version of its webpage.
I’ll let the party speak for itself:
Socialist? Socialist?
We in Sweden keep hearing this from racist and xenophobic Danes - that we don’t dare speak the truth. That debate is better suited for a MB in these parts of the world, as it hardly can be of interest to anyone alse. Let me just say that I will not engage Rune in more debate, if he claims that a party akin to ‘The National Front’ in France is ‘socialist’. I can only assume that his own political stance is somewhat… brown.
Futile Gesture, I agree, to an extent… I could have kept it in GD. And I do think it’s almost getting off rail, part of which I’m to blame for.
But I was calling Ryan_Liam on his hypocritical behavior, not his opinions per se. And I do think the Pit is the right place for that. I will e-mail some mods to check what they think
Yes, but it’s a national kind of socialism. 
I’m off to bed so just a few quick comments.
Yes.
Are you saying it’s not worthwhile defending because it’s not perfect? While not absolute it’s there to a large degree and immigrants should accept that’s how this society works. Girls are not worth less the boys. They’re not married off at a young age. They’re not restricted in black tents making all sports and physical activity impossible. They’re not baby-machines, they’re given the same opportunity to have an education and a working life. And yes it’s even possible to have a female boss.
Female Genital Mutilation. It’s not allowed in Denmark, but some immigrant have taken their daughters back to Egypt or Somalia and had it done there. Not being illegal in those countries it was not illegal to do so. There have been some attempts to change the laws so such trips were made illegal too, I don’t know where it stands at the moment. Anyway legal or not it’s a cultural or religious practice not compatible with Danish society.
Will. Quite a few I suspect. Have: Some Jews are no longer able to attend certain schools or be in certain neighborhoods. Showing Jewish symbols anywhere one might a person from the Middle East is a potential hazard.
Honour killing is of course illegal. It still happen. It’s an abomination that must be stamped out. But it is a cultural practice and not something risen in isolation or out of a clear blue sky. It’s a product of a many cultural norms each of which must be addressed.
While I believe everybody, including immigrants, should be allowed to say whatever the fuck they want, I also think they should stop with all that anti-Semitic / homophobic shit. I propose no laws and I fail to see the conflict.
Thank you. Yes it’s mine – among others. And yes I, along with the others, get to decide what is compatible.
Ahh yes. Do play the Nazi card; The Last Refuge of the Stupid Mind. So predictable, so Swedish. Why are you Swedes always so fucking predictable boring? But for the record I think the Nazies were a bunch of SOCIALISTIC bastards.
I’m off to bed so I have no time, but the socialistic crap lies in all the snips you gracefully skipped. Larger welfare state. Opposition to lower taxes. Better state paid pension systems. Better state paid healthcare. Better state paid education systems. Impossible naïve environment polices. Protection of workers entitlements by limiting immigration from the new EU countries. Etc. Gah! Run of the mill socialistic bullshit. Basically they’re Social sheep-shagging Democrats with a bit of anti-immigration and anti-EU tagged on. Which is attested by the fact that practically all their voters are former Social Democrats (another sheep shagging socialistic party which has just affirmed they agree completely with DF on all issues of immigration). I think they’re crap. I think they’re socialist crap. And I think they’re probably xenophobic crap too. I also think they serve an important role in the Danish democratic system – since they seem to be the only voice for a large number of people that would otherwise be unable to have influence. But yes national socialism pretty much covers it.
Because this is a soverign nation, not a God damned international hub! If you want what we got, be prepared to play the game the way we play it or stay home and fix your own place up (That is an option, you know. We didn’t all just pack up and leave during the Depression, Civil War, Revolution, etc). It’s an insult, affront, and a nussaince to the host citizenry to behave otherwise, and it’s insane to expect the hosts not to feel that way.
Companies are legal entities existing soley for base economic opportunism. By definition, that’s their motive for everything.
Anyway, Brutus, you’d have a point if you weren’t talking about *Britain[/I}
(…accidently pressed submit)
Out of all of the nations on Earth, the U.K. is the last that should ever expect anyone to respect its attempts to preserve its own country. Do you remember what the world language is? Do you remember why?
Whoops, that’s “preserve it’s own culture”.
Rune, can you please remind me what your point is? I don’t get what you are arguing for.
As for The Danish People’s Party, perhaps we can leave that garbage at the door. “Strengthen Danish culture” indeed! The criticisms aimed at this organization in this thread seem reasonable to me.
Your examples of native Americans and immigrant Americans are a bit mysterious. The European invaders took over the newly discovered continent and exterminated its inhabitants, they had no interest at all in anything other than material gain (land and riches). They weren’t travelling to a host culture, they attacked and pushed back that culture systematically.
Among the things you would like to eliminate from pesky Muslim immigrants:
What, in principle, is wrong with arranged marriage? Not a forced marriage, but an arranged one?
Yes, but this is achieved not through magic wands but through measures that address other important issues that result in sexual disparity.
This is one of those factors mentioned above. To make men and women equal you start by educating them equally.
Sure. This is in fact prescribed by Islam.
Very important.
I think you mean to say simply, “well-integrated in society”.
Elaborate?
Sure.
It would be nice.
Yes.
Nobody needs that.
A very, very complex issue that requires an element of cultural and contextual understanding most people are simply not endowed with. Simply put, bin Laden is to many people (and for many reasons) an heroic figure; and even some of those who do not consider him a hero would consider a bold attack on the US as just retribution for many decades of oppression and meddling. You can try to fix these laymen perceptions by educating the poor ignorant folk who don’t know any better than feeling joy at the news of such tragedies.
Fatwas against writers of fiction are especially lame.
Why not? Would you extend the courtesy to supporters of Bush as well – who is viewed in many parts of the world as a greater hazard than bin Laden – or to certain Israeli hawks, or any number of South Americans directly involved in “dirty wars”, etc.?
Your list is internally inconsistent. For example, the presence of Freedom of Expression requires that your subjects be entitled to proclaim whatever they want, which includes holding demonstrations against homosexuality or in support of bin Laden. Perhaps you should remove a number of those items and simply include a provision against “hate speech”.
The other problem is that almost every single element on your list may be applied to persons of any number of religions, from a myriad different cultures. You want a truly homophobic society? Try good old Christian and “white” Latvia. And if you are looking for homophobia AND anti-jewish proclamations, check out Christian and “white” Lithuania. These that you list are not problems necessarily particular to Muslim societies, which is what Ryan was freaking out about. I am therefore not sure what your argument is, though it would be great to see a number of these problems removed from the face of the planet.
Note: I’m writing this offline since SDMB is down right now.
This is the Pit, obviously if the Gasbag (or some such thing, I forgot the real name) would have wanted a debate he could have continued in GD, which I see you have recently done with some excellent post. So I don’t really pretend to present a lucid line of thoughts here, just some musings. Which runs more or less (the site is down now so I transcribe from memory – which may no be entirely good since it’s been a while since I though about this thread):
- Someone said: “I don’t see why immigrants should be obliged to integrated into society beyond learning some basic laws and the language.
- I said I expected immigrants to do a whole lot more than that. (Arranged and forced marriage, Equality of the sexes, Freedom of expression, … etc) – which I readily agree is a somewhat hastily and haphazardly collected list.
- mhendo said: no-one in this thread has shown actions of the immigrants that has been detrimental to the host country, except as figments of paranoid in the heads of xenophobes.
- I said I had already listed a few which I consider detrimental – and which I expect immigrants to change.
The point is merely that I want and expect immigrants to change cultural mores to accommodate into the society when they immigrate to Denmark - when such is clerly not compatible with Danish culture (what is compatible is decided by Danes). I have not proposed any legislation or laws and have not demanded any use of force. Just that I think they’re obliged to do so. Indeed legislation and laws are often nothing more that fig-leaves, since no change is made by the simple act of writing paragraphs on paper.
Indeed, and you’d see that I did most of the criticisms. And it was the Gasbag whom for some obscure reason, probably to damn me by association, brought them up – along with a newspaper, some girl from Venezuela and “stock” – before he went on to insinuate I was a Nazi. And lest you should think my line about DF being a valuable asset in the Danish democratic system in any way amounts to any personal endorsement for that socialist crap (and to show what a great person I am – since pious grandstanding seems to be the original reason Gasbag started this thread) I extend this also to the goddamn communistic sheep-shagging party called Enhedslisten (a cooperation between some various fragmented parties to the left of the far left; The Trotskyites, The old Soviet backing Communists, The Maoists, some grouping who thought Albania used to be heaven on earth, etc.) which also fill an essential spot in the Danish democratic system, by giving influence to people who would otherwise have been without – even thought they have no brain and should have been strangulated at birth.
Not my example. In fact I think I showed how it was a faulty analogy.
I doubt I have use the term Muslim. In fact I was mostly thinking about Gipsies on the education point.
Children are not the property of parents. Choosing a mate is one of the most important and most personal acts in human life – it’s also an act of personal independence, which is very import in this country. Besides in theory one might think the two are clearly separated, in real life one often blends into the other.
Yes naturally. I don’t think I ever said it ever was easy.
Yes I agree absolutely. (Forgetting the Gipsies for a moment, since you want to concentrate on muslims). And stop sending them home on re-education trips to Islamic school-prisons. And stop sending them to Islamic schools in Denmark that teach moralities and lessons taken from the Middle Ages and strict isolation from rest of society.
Yes of course, The Religion of Peace and all. But so what? Do you say there are not problems with religious tolerance among immigrant groups? Especially re. Jews?
As an aside, does Islam also preach religious tolerance towards religions not of the Book? E.g. Asatro or some such thing?
Yes. Not living in isolated communities without any interest in the rest of society. Participating, working, making friends, marrying outside small closed groups often based on original country.
Well I was thinking mostly along the lines of homophobia, and a healthy (also female) sexual life. Not labelling girls whores for having sex before marriage. Accepting nakedness on beaches and parks, etc. Not dressing girls in gowns that restrict all movements. Etc.
Yes. However not I nor anyone else can educate anybody at all. Those poor ignorant folks are firstly responsible for seeking education themselves. I could excuse some such idioticy from first generation immigrants (though I’d label it massively ungrateful), however when we come to second and third generation there’s just no excuse – nor should there be any poor uneducated such. I think it reveals that even after generations these people still revolve around issues in the Middle East and perceive themselves as being Arabs/etc rather that Danish.
A pro-Bush / Sharon demonstration in Denmark?! You must be joking! You’re more likely to see pigs fly over Mecca. I think these demonstration, along with a vicious pro-Islamism demonstration we witnessed recently, reveal lives still revolving after so many generation around their original homelands and an opposition to be part of Denmark. You want a society based around the laws of Sharia immigrate to Saudia Arabia, you want a secular society you can stay in Denmark. Note I do not propose a ban, merely that I very much think the immigrants ought to discard old customs here – that they owe it to the host country.
I, as I wrote, see no inconsistency as I merely write about area I’d expect immigrants to discard old customs. And I despise hate-speech laws with a passion (we already got some such on the books in Denmark).
I’ve never been to Latvia, and I doubt we have very many immigrants from there. I was not responding to Ryan’s original Muslim fears but about immigrants in general – though surely many of there problems are more concentrated in immigrants with a Muslim background.
No time to preview I’m afraid…
The Gaspode. snicker No insult implied… giggle
Sorry, pizzabrat, but the way “we” play it here in this country is to welcome folks from other countries, who travel here for economic reasons, and to respect the fact that their culture is integral to their identity. Don’t like it? You can get the hell out. “We” built this country on the labor and culture of immigrants.
Daniel
Great good on you. One would have to be at least as big an idiot as I am not change one’s mind (esp when one is wrong).
You seem to have been forgotten in this pitting. Such the pity.
It seems appropriate to end every reply to you with “dumbass.”
The examples below show this to clearly be the case.
For examples from here:
“Do you have any evidence to support these claims, or is it more of your personal conjecture?”
better as
“Do you have any evidence to support these claims, or is it more of your personal conjecture, dumbass?”
“Once again, I ask politely for a citation for an assertion you’ve made.”
would be better as
“Once again, I ask politely for a citation for an assertion you’ve made, dumbass.”
“Comments about the make up of his militia is not the same thing as a citation in support of your assertions…”
vs
“Comments about the make up of his militia is not the same thing as a citation in support of your assertions… dumbass.”
“I strongly suggest that you accurately attribute the quotes that you use.
There’s little else that will increase the clarity of your posts as immensely for so very, very, very little effort. If you need instruction on how to do this, it is available in the About This Message Board forum.”
Would read so much better if it were instead,
“I strongly suggest that you accurately attribute the quotes that you use.
There’s little else that will increase the clarity of your posts as immensely for so very, very, very little effort. If you need instruction on how to do this, it is available in the About This Message Board forum, dumbass.”
And examples from here:
“Will you provide any reason to believe that the writings of these dozens individuals are representative of the sentiments of teh tens of millions? Until you become willing to do so, the blogs are a moot issue re the widely held sentiments of the Iraqi populace re the Interim Gov. Until you become willing to do so, the blogs are a irrelevant issue re the widely held sentiments of the Iraqi populace re the Interim Gov. Until you become willing to do so, the blogs do not provide any support for your argument whatsoever.
Either decide that you’re willing to share the evidence you have or stop going on and on about the blogs. Enough already.”
vs
“Will you provide any reason to believe that the writings of these dozens individuals are representative of the sentiments of the tens of millions? Until you become willing to do so, the blogs are a moot issue re the widely held sentiments of the Iraqi populace re the Interim Gov. Until you become willing to do so, the blogs are a irrelevant issue re the widely held sentiments of the Iraqi populace re the Interim Gov. Until you become willing to do so, the blogs do not provide any support for your argument whatsoever.
Either decide that you’re willing to share the evidence you have or stop going on and on about the blogs. Enough already, dumbass.”
“I asked a question (Will you provide any reason to believe that the writings of these dozens individuals are representative of the sentiments of the tens of millions?).
A question is not a statement of a case.”
vs
“I asked a question (Will you provide any reason to believe that the writings of these dozens individuals are representative of the sentiments of the tens of millions?).
A question is not a statement of a case, dumbass”
“You do know that you addressed the posts of two different people without making a distinction as to who said what here, don’t you?”
vs
“You do know that you addressed the posts of two different people without making a distinction as to who said what here, don’t you, dumbass?”
Don’t you agree, dumbass?
No I wouldn’t. Ok fine, maybe those bloggers don’t talk for Millions of people, and maybe those people don’t support Allawi, but in the end, you, them and your defeatist unreconcilable attitude is what stinks and brings them all down. The problem with people like you is that you liked to proved right no matter how much of a shitstorm it produces. Fine, let the Iraqis get Sadr in charge, and fine let the democratic processes that haven’t been seen in god knows how long go down the toilet with it, but hey you’re proved right, thats all that matters.
A big fuck you to your face. (And fine, take this as your victory, getting me all pissed off and mad, doesn’t turn my support around for Allawi or the IGC or the prospect of Iraqis deciding for themselves what they want without using bullets in the process.)
No one is against the Iraqis wanting to decide what they want for themselves, Sadr did it consistently the wrong way time and time again, and I hope when you’re proved right and an Islamic theocracy is put in place it’ll wipe the smug smile off your face.
Taking the time to help you with you weak ass arguments isn’t indicative of a “defeatist unreconcilable attitude”, dumbass.
This sounds as if you believe that there is some sort of a connection between what I post and how Iraq will turn out, dumbass.
I assure you that nothing that I post has any discernable effect whatsoever in Iraq, dumbass.
I sincerely hope that things go well in Iraq, dumbass.
I only give half a fuck about your emotional state, dumbass. A victory to me would be to get you to be even more questioning of what politicians tell you, dumbass.
I hope that the bloodshed ends posthaste as well. I think that the Iraqis should be free to cuss one another as much as necessary though.
The IGC has been dissolved already. The IIG is ‘in power’ now, dumbass.
I too wish that Sadr had chosen a differen means of achieving his goals. However, I don’t pretend to understand what factors have motivated him and his followers, dumbass.
Hey how’d you know I was smiling? Spyware is a motherfuck these days.
**
But, seriously, all joking aside, what pissed me off the most is your refusal to note whose comments you are addressing.**
If you had been willing to put forth that very, very minimal effort toward a common courtesy, I’d still be willing to engage you in GD type dialogue, dumbass.
Loving regards,
SimonX