Satan has been banned

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81

The facts of Brians infractions are not really in dispute, are they? It’s more about opinion, which is unavoidable.

Here’s where our opinions differ:

I disagree that it is “very, very” important. What I think is “very, very important” - well, what I think is truly important is of interest to no one, I’m sure, but I don’t think the simple fact of breaking the rules is “very, very important”. No one’s lives are at stake, after all. And while I acknowledged the rules and the reasoning behind them, I don’t believe in being a slave to rules, most particularly when determining if a rule has truly been broken can be so subjective.

The rules, in an of themselves, without a context , aren’t very important at all, in my view. For instance, it is NOT against the rules to say some unbelievably vicious things in the Pit. But it can still be hurtful, ugly, and damaging. It could still scare newbies into not participating. Just because it falls in the forum labeled for it, doesn’t make it more tolerable. It’s not like people get to vote on whether * someone else * is going to shred them in the Pit, as I can attest. So Brian is mildly insulting in a forum called “Great Debates” …what’s the big harm? I’ll take that and deal with it anytime rather that the nasty gang-rapes perpetrated weekly on one person or another in the Pit. So what if one is allowed and the other is not? I think the allowed thing is far more offensive than the unallowed thing.

Well, I’m a member of this community, and I’ll have to object to you speaking on behalf of everybody. And, even if I agree that he was being rude and disrespectful, which in many cases I think he was, I would hardly characterize it as “contemptible” at all. Not even close. Not even in the neighborhood. Annoying. Irritating. Obnoxious. Unpleasant. My contempt is a precious gift of scorn I reserve for things of greater impact and import than Satan’s little tantrums and bad boy nose-thumbing.

I don’t recall saying anything resembling the idea that Brian’s behavior was “perfectly OK”, particularly simply because he has a “fan base”, and the fact that you would misstate what I said so thoroughly calls into question the clarity and accuracy of the rest of your reporting, even your perceptions. No slam or rudeness intended, merely an observation.

Well, again, it’s a matter of opinion and perception, I think.

Well, Shayna, i don’t recall saying that I failed to grasp anything. I think I have a pretty good grasp on the whole shebang. I just happen to disagree with the assessment of his crimes and the punishment meted out.

Which I believe I am allowed to do.

82

Is ATMB now the forum in which to discuss the actions of moderators? It sure seems like it.

It also seems like the forum in which we pick apart other poster’s arguments.

Satan’s been banned, Elvis is dead, and the Beatles aren’t going to have a reunion tour.

Let it be.

83

Stoid, you completely missed the point. I did not say that simply breaking a rule is very, very important. What I actually said was that Brian KNOWS that there are rules and he KNOWS what they are, yet he INTENTIONALLY broke them in spite of REPEATED WARNINGS not to. THAT, in my opinion IS a very, very important point in this discussion. It takes away the debate about the specifics of his infractions and focuses it where it belongs - on the fact that he knowingly and willfully continued to flip the bird to the moderators without care or concern as to what the rules ARE, regardless of which ones he broke.

Since when are the rules without a context? As far as I know, they’re spelled out rather clearly. The fact that you so easily are able to tell me exactly what is and is not allowed in the Pit vs GD is evidence that the rules are quite clear to you, too. There’s nothing ambiguous or out of context about it. Each forum has guidelines associated with it and conduct befitting that forum is expected to be followed by all posters at all times. You know this and Brian knows this. If you willfully ignore those rules and post whatever you damn well feel like, that’s grounds for banning.

Well, so long as we’re talking about OPINIONS here, I didn’t find him to be “mildly insulting” at all. I found him to be rude, nasty, hateful and beligerent. Adjectives aside, the bottom line is that DIRECT insults (ie: name-calling and the like) is expressly forbidden in GD, and again, Brian knows this, but chose to do it anyway, in spite of MULTIPLE warnings to knock it off. And the “big harm” is that it sets a very bad example to new posters jumping into the fray, it reflects poorly on our community (whether you agree or not, poor behaviour by any of our members does reflect badly on us as a group) and it sets an impossible precedent when the mods want to ban a newbie who immediately comes in flinging insults, yet they appear to allow that kind of behaviour from long-standing posters. It opens the administration up to all kinds of endless harrassment both in email and the Pit, claiming “special priviledges” and the like. If you ask me, I think that’s very, very harmful indeed.

Stoid, I am perfectly within my rights to express my opinion on the fact that certain behaviour is detrimental and destructive to OUR community without you extrapolating that I mean to “speak for everyone.” I don’t. My opinion on the matter still stands, your condemnation of it notwithstanding.

And you really mean to tell me that you don’t find someone who’s irritiating, obnoxious, annoying and unpleasant to be a detriment to this community? And before you get on me about all the other people who fit that bill, I remind you that we’re not talking about merely obnoxious people or posting styles, we’re talking about blatant and repeated rules violations. There is a difference, whether you acknowledge it or not.

How disingenuous of you to claim I misstated what you wrote when your words are right there to compare. You specifically said…

Ok, so I changed “it SHOULD matter” to “it’s perfectly OK”. Gee, sorry. I don’t think I misconstrued your intent at all, however. You seem to think that his behaviour is perfectly ok (not deserving of banning), in part, because he’s been around along time and has a fan base here. I completely disagree, and I said as much.

Yes, you are certainly allowed to have a different assessment of Brian’s “crimes.” However, when you make a statement such as “the rules HE was expected to live by seemed to be much more stringent than the rules others have to live by,” you are actually misstating FACTS, not merely expressing an opinion. The rules here are for everyone to follow and not only were they not more stringent for Brian, but the complete opposite is true. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of record.

84

I’m not going to spend the time on this one that I did on the last one. I will quickly address a few things:

  1. Just because he knows, i still don’t think it’s important.

  2. I should have said “Breaking” the rules. Bottom line on this one is that I think it’s much more important to look at results of rule-breaking…but again we are into opinion.

  3. I disagree with you about the harm Brian was doing. As I said before, i see others behaving just as badly or worse all the time.

  4. You can always express your opinions. And I can object to you making statements on behalf of the whole community. You are just one member of it. I would not presume to speak for the whole community becaus I am just one member of it. Why do you?

  5. My characterizations of Brian’s behavior were the worst that I could come up with to define what I have seen. I don’t even agree with them, really, but I could see how others might see them as being that bad. As far as I’m concerned, he’s been a little bitchy and arrogant. <shrug>

As for “obnoxious people” vs “repeated rule breakers” -I absolutely see a difference. i don’t give a damn what rules are being violated by anyone. (Except for the copyright issues, etc. Very black and white and the damage is easily calculated). I thought I made that clear? I would rather hang out with a Satan, who flings an occasional insult in the middle of a long, informative, and well-presented post about real ideas and issues, and who is interesting and clever besides, than hang out with someone who follows the letter of the law perfectly, but habitually drags other posters names into the Pit and excoriates them.

  1. As for your misstatements, you are repeating them in this post. Using one or two of the words that I used doesn’t count as accurately representing what I said, if you leave out all the rest. For instance “not deserving of banning” and “perfectly OK” do not mean the same thing. At all.

And as for the “facts” of what was expected of Brian, I stand by my statement and I reject yours. The rules may be in black and white, but until I see everyone who behaves as badly or worse than Brian get the same treatment as he has received, I will continue to feel that he was expected to live up to an even higher standard than others are. Which, by the way, is a common occurance when anyone has already been identified as a rulebreaker. That doesn’t make it fair.
And finally, I said in my first post, and I will repeat here, since you seem to have glossed right over it. Brain has been a crab lately, and he’s gotten a few feathers ruffled. In light of his previous warnings, I could support a suspension. But also in light of PREVIOUS realities, which are that Brian has been a popular poster with much to contribute, he should have been given a chance to work it out with some neutral mod.

I just think that while Brian may have “earned” some sort of censure or punishment, he just as truly “earned” a closer hearing and extra consideration. Not least because it bespeaks some deeper problem for a poster with such an overwhelmingly positive reputation to have so suddenly gotten so bitchy, don’t you think? Or care?

stoid

85

Brian doesn’t deserve ‘extra consideration’ - nobody does - but he’s gotten it. Any lesser poster would have been banned long before he was.

As I said in my first post, circumstances in his life might (might) explain his recent behaviour, but they do not excuse it.

And as I also said before, this might actually prompt HIM to look at what might be causing his nasty disposition, and do something about it. Letting him think that his behaviour was perfectly alright certainly wouldn’t help.

It seems, upon reflection, that Brian may have thought, like you, that his being a long time respected poster here bought him (or should have bought him) a lot more leeway than it did. If he hadn’t (assuming he did), this whole situation might have been avoided.

It DID buy him a lot more leeway than, say, I might have, but he used it up long ago.

86

Satan was a pretty good guy. He may have made a few wrong choices along the way, but I won’t remember him for that. I’ll remember Satan for being smart, articulate, and witty.

Every new beginning comes from some other beginning’s end.

87

Well, like I said…I disagree. Rules are great, thay ain’t everything.

88

And Satan broke them. Often. And was then told not to by Ed, specifically stating that he would be banned if he continued:

( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45692 )

Not being a jerk isn’t a whole heck of a lot to ask. I’ll miss having him around, but as I see it, if Satan didn’t see himself as being constrained by the rules around here, the administration shouldn’t feel compelled to give him any more slack.

I could see that if someone was a long-time and well-respected poster that they might be deserving a little slack for when they shoot their mouth off a bit much or something. Not only did Satan use up the considerable amount of slack he got, he never gave any indication that he cared about the rules or that he would make any effort to post within them.

89

As with Yue Han, you can see that I am around often and post rarely . . . I have followed the Satan-Mod conflict for a time and I can certainly see the admin’s point. Still - Brians posts were very good, many times funny, and usually insightful in one way or another. Count me among those who will miss him.

Mainly though I have posted here because I wanted to say that I truly hope this does not mean we have lost Drain Bead as well. It concerns me that she has not posted her opinions on this thread yet.

DB if you are lurking about, please continue to grace this community with your thoughts. I have always enjoyed your posts as much as Brians.

  • NM
90

Well, see, people keep saying, “Oh, give him another chance.”

They did. Many, many times. Unfortunately, he screwed those up.
I don’t think Satan’s a bad guy, but I think that the fact that he isn’t a newbie probably means less leeway. Think about it: If you’re new, not sure of the ropes, you might get a little more slack. But if you’re a longtime poster, you should know the rules.

And for the record, the Pit is there to keep the insults from destroying debates. Trust me, it happens alot on other boards that don’t have the Pit, or Fuck You and Die (TM Something Awful and hopefully Smile and Act Nice soon!).

Let me tell you, I moderate at Smile and Act Nice and Customer’s Suck, and when a poster repeatedly breaks the rules such as Satan did, they’re going to be kicked out. It takes away from our time which should be used helping the conversation along and regular board crap, when we have to spend it chastising people who SHOULD KNOW BETTER. And Satan did. He was warned. Repeatedly. Given more chances than anyone. And he blew it. I don’t hate Satan; I think he was a pretty cool guy with a short fuse. BUT, if he couldn’t follow the rules, he’s probably better off somewhere else. And for the record, maybe some weren’t hurt by what he said, but others may have been, and their feelings are just as legit as anyone’s.

91

Not addressing anything else you said, but this in particular is a smokescreen…not by you, necessarily, but by the board itself. If people’s feelings were the issue, the Pit would not exist, or if it did, it would have tighter rules than it does. What possible difference, as I previously asked, is there between being nasty and cruel in one forum or another, unless it is designed so that the person being attacked can elect to have said attack occur in the pit or not?

If someone wants to call me an idiotic, worthless. moronic bitch, why would I find it any less unpleasant if I read it in the Pit than if I read it in Great Debates? I can assure you, the location makes zero difference.

Except, again as I pointed out previously, in one of the other forums, it is less likely to grow into a group stoning than it is in the pit, which for me makes letting everyone be a little shitty everywhere sometimes preferable to being uptight and regulated everywhere except the Pit, and letting people cut loose with jsut about anything there. The net amount of cruelty and viciousness would go down, I’m sure.

stoid

92

I was thinking, a lot of people seem to be upset that Satan was banned. Why doesn’t the board have a “suspension”? Instead of a “boom, you’re banned”, you could just suspend the posting priveleges of the member for a few weeks/months/whatever. Sure makes a lot more sense than an outcast for life approach.

93

This Board does have a “suspension” of sorts, in that some people who reflect, apologize, and show the Admins they mean well have been allowed back. And many allowed back have remained members in good standing, and been very good people.

Not to speak for Tuba and Ed, but it seems to me that to do that requires both a desire on the part of the person banned to return and behave, and a display of contrition of some sort - essentially, a “growing-up” process. Obviously, many have difficulty with this concept, and continue to make vague accusations and threats and snipes. Those people are not allowed back, and instead are simply remembered as “ass goblins”.

94

Stoid-the point of the Pit is so that many debates and discussions will not be destroyed by flaming and fights. If people don’t like hearing insults and nastiness, they can avoid the Pit. Not the best solution, but it’s better that than having a serious discussion on the sinking of the Lusitania or a debate about who won an election degenerate into rounds of “You suck!” “No, YOU suck!” “No no, YOU SUCK!” etc etc.

Trust me; I invite you to visit some of the boards I visit and lurk at; where very good conversation is destroyed because some people have a hot temper. Have you ever moderated any boards? Trust me, this kind of thing is NOT GOOD. It forces people to think before they come up with a point, instead of just randomly shooting one’s mouth off.

And Stoid, not to start anything, but can you honestly say you have never made veiled insults to someone you disagreed with? I’m not saying you did, just asking a question-if the answer is yes, well, then, you’re no better than what you are condemning. If you say no, then there’s no problem.

95

Do Z wrote:

Well, if it was a really good movie, like, say, Airplane! …

96

I understand the point of the Pit. Does that mean it can’t have rules, too? I meant it when I said that I would rather see the pit (in it’s current nearly rule-free form which allows for gangrape) to be abolished and the rules relaxed for all other areas (particularly GD) than the current situation.

As for me and veiled insults. Hmmm. I think I can safely say that no, I haven’t been tossing any around. Which isn’t to claim a perfect memory, it’s just that I know how I post, and the rules I live by when I post. And I live by the rule of “Nuthin personal”. I have many times thought of some really juicy insults I could use, and then sadly had to put them aside because it would ruin my reputation., and break my own rules. (One of the reasons that rule exists is because I happen to be particularly talented at insulting people. I can verbally eviscerate a person pretty effectively, and used to do so in my younger days. After seeing the carnage I left in my wake, I gave such behavior up.)

I would venture to say that my recent Pit thread, which was defensive, not offensive, was my first and hopefully my last adventure in getting personal. I just don’t.

And it would be interesting to see what the discourse around here would look like if everyone adopted my rules about getting personal.

stoid

PS: This is not to claim that I am not very capable of pissing people off. I am, I think we all know that. It’s just that the behavior of mine which people around here get so pissed off about has nothing to do with personal insults, whatever else it may be about. [sub] self-righteousness, mostly, and why that pisses people off so much is mystifying to me. jeez, jus tbecause I think I’m right, why do you care? I may be delusional… no reflection on you unless…unless you secretly fear that it’s TRUE! Muhahahahahaha[/sub]

97

As a newbie to the SDMB, I do not know Satan or the full extent of his infractions. I think no one is in disargeement on the facts, but we do have several conflicting opinions. Basically put, Satan banned for being a jerk. This breaks rule #1. Yet it was his style to do so. What i think has been overlooked is what is so wrong with being a jerk in the first place? Satan added a lot to the SDMB, and the aggressive style he used was entertaining.
IMHO being a jerk is ok, and if other posters get away with it, why not Satan? Besides, if it weren’t for jerks, how would we distinguish the nice people? (not to say that Satan wasn’t also nice)
:confused:

98

Hey, he made the choice to quit posting, by continuing to post in a manner he was warned was not acceptable. (I disagreed with certain of the mods’ warnings, but that is their call, not mine. Don’t like the rules, find another game.) More power to him. It is only a message board. I hope he has a happy and fulfilling life.

IMO, he did seem cranky of late. But I found his infractions less troublesome than many other practices that do not risk banning. IMO his posts added to the boards more than they detracted. Obviously, many folk disagree. At least there was no mistaking where he was coming from. But again, the rules were posted. The warnings were clear. He decided he didn’t care enough to change.

I was a mite disappointed, tho, that he took the martyr’s path of forcing the mods’ hand over a number of (what I consider) rather minor infractions. Would have been classier to decide he didn’t care to put any more into the boards, and silently walk away. Or else completely meltdown in a dramatic way. (Not that I’m about to call him a weasel, tho!)

99

I’m in the process of wading through all the recent threads, but knowing what I know of this board and the administration and moderation team, I wonder if we should perhaps have an additional classification for members. I’ve noticed a number of Dopers mention that perhaps Satan should have had his privileges suspended for a time, would it be possible to do that and show “SUSPENDED” under a members name, rather than go to the full “BANNED?” (reading now I see this has already come up, but my question stands.)
Mind you, I’m certainly not one to criticize what has happened, not because of any past actions of mine, but rather because I’m in agreement, for now, with Brians banning. Does it suck? Yes. Will he be missed by many? Obviously. Was it warranted? Without question.
I refuse to get bogged down in the rightness or wrongness of the banning, the administration did it and I have to trust that they did what they had to, or needed to, do. It’s not for me to second-guess them, if for no other reason than they are the ones the care of this board is entrusted to. More than that, they have shown to be right and just in their actions, providing warning after warning, allowing the poster in question to “straighten up and fly right,” should they want to.
My only hope is that should I ever find myself spinning out of control, and I’m not saying Satan was, that I’d hope to be jarred to my senses, made aware of my “jerkiness,” and allowed to make amends. I have no reason to think I shouldn’t be, and that I’d only need to follow through.

I hope to see you around, Brian, but for now…
Ed said it, I believe it.

100

This is about the fucking stupidest thing I have ever seen happen on this board… this goes beyond the :rolleyes: “Melin incident”. Ed is a moron for this one. All respect like he cares gone. My father and my wayward self used to talk about the Books and Cecil and Ed into the morning and now I just have this bitter BILE in the back of my throat regarding it all.

Funny how the smartest people can show themselves to be the pettiest and the least thought out.