"Satanic"- Or Harmless Fun?

Great Debates
81

I’ve always felt that there is a big difference between having faith in God or an afterlife and having faith in Satan or demons. There is a certain logic to the former: Otherwise life would have no meaning. But what sense does it make to assert that powerful supernatural beings exist for the sole purpose of causing needless harm?

If God doesn’t intervene in Earthly affairs, it could be that He remains aloof and considers these things–including wars–to be petty doings and it isn’t unitl you die that you enter a realm where God has a greater presence. But in terms of this thread, petty doings such as games and storybooks are Satan’s bread and butter. If Satan’s purpose is to cause as much harm on Earth as possible, then how come with all that supernatural power he has succeeded in doing nothing whatsoever. Any harmful event that has occured such as an earthquake or a war can be traced back in its origins and fully understood without a trace of supernatural activity being uncovered.

I seldom put much stock in what televangelists have to say, but a remark I caught years ago while channel surfing has stuck with me: “The penalty for turning away from God is not eternal life in Hell, but death”. I’ll buy that.

Again, there’s no way I’m going to have faith in the devil.

82

Trojan war? Started over a contest of the Gods on who was the hottest woman? Anyone?

I don’t reca

83

Argh. As I was saying…

I don’t recall God turning into a swan and raping anyone, either. (Before anyone says it: Mary consented, darn it.)

84

That tart Leda was just asking for it.

According to [url=“http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/bull27.html”] Bullfinch**, the Trojan youth Paris earned the enmity of Hera (Juno) and Athena(Minerva) when he chose Aphrodite (Venus) as the most beautiful in a contest among the three goddesses. Later, aided by Aphrodite, Paris broke the sacred laws of hospitality when, as a guest at the wedding of Meenlaus and Helen, he stole Helen and hotfooted it back to Troy, thereby setting off the Trojan War (followed by the Ramses and Sheik Wars, plus the Ribbed for Her Pleasure police action).

Generally the Greco-Roman gods punished hubris. For instance, when the arrogant Arachne boasted that she was the best weaver in the world, the goddess Athena challenged her to a weaving contest, beat her, and turned her into a spider as punishment.

85

[Nitpick]
Actually, Arachne was every bit the weaver, both in skill and speed, as Athena. This probably would have been enough to set the grey-eyed goddess off, but the final straw was Arachne’s subject matter – she chose to depict the most unpleasant aspects of the gods in all the other myths. Realizing that the contest was a draw, Athena slashed up Arachne’s weaving with her shuttle, then smote her. Definite hubris, but if anyone deserved a little, it was Arachne.[/Nitpick]

86

“Smote her,” huh? A sure sign of gods in action – the smiting. They smote, and they smote hard, and those smote tended to stay smitten. It’s no small thing, to smite someone.

But isn’t it a great word to say?

Smote smote smote.

87

Jesus and Jehovah: Still smotin’ after all these years.

88

Basically, IMHO, it all comes down to what you read and don’t read in the Bible. The fundies believe it all, but they tend to pass over some things (again, IMHO). I know I did when I was one of them.

For example:

The new testament speaks of Jesus’ healing and love and redemption for mankind. Most of the books are about getting along with each other and forgiveness - though there is an occaisional mention of fire and brimstone. That shows people how loving and compassionate God is to everyone (except those damn pharasees… they’re fu**ed!).

There’s a story in the Old Testament (again, I’m horrible with cites) where I think angels or the angel of the lord (basically, someone important and not human) had taken on human shape and visited a “godly man.” The men in that town tried to bust into the “godly man’s” house to sodomize the guests. Instead of allowing this to happen, the “godly man” gave his two virgin daughters (and to be a virgin and not married in that time, you were pretty young) to the mob so they could be raped. This “godly man” was rewarded. This is one of the many stories that show how vengeful and wicked this same God can be.

Did he change his mind, or is he just messing with our heads? OR did someone trip one night and say “Dude, what if God were like a man. He could do cool $hit!”… “Yeah man! I bet if he died, it wouldn’t last too long.” … Just a thought!

*I have never tried acid and I’m in no way promoting it. I’ve just heard as I’m sure many others have that when you’re on it you have a tendancy to have “religious” experiences.

89

The infamous story of Sodom and Gomorrah, often used in argument to “prove” that God hates fags. The “godly man” was Lot. Those using this story to argue with me about homosexuality are then treated to the next part of the story, where Lot has sex with his daughters. Homosexuality is a BIG BAD THING, but apparently incest is okey-dokey. Most have never even heard of this part (leading me to believe that they’ve never actually read the Bible, but just had the story related to them by their pastor or other religious mentors). Those who have fall back on, “Well, he was drunk!” (An excuse used for very many things by very many people for a very long time.)

The more experienced ladies and gentlemen among us can come to a conclusion that, if a man’s too drunk to recognize that he’s having sex with his own daughters, it’s highly likely that he’s too drunk to do the deed at all. And even if he was–does that excuse incest?

90

Well, not just that… but his daughters SPECIFICALLY got him drunk for that purpose. They were sober when they made these decisions, and they were left unpunished. Likewise, don’t most fundamentalist Christians believe that it’s a sin to drink to the point of drunkenness? Lot didn’t have a problem with that!

91

Dead on, mandielise (and what a lovely name, may I add). I don’t have my Bible to hand–yes, I do own one :smiley: – but if memory serves me correctly, their reasoning was along the lines of, “our father’s line will die out!” Really? Why exactly couldn’t he simply remarry?

92

They thought that their father was the last man, that they were the last women, and that everyone else in the world had been killed. They didn’t realize that it was just those cities on the plain that had been leveled; they thought it was a more global phenomenon.

93

I’m probably just opening my big mouth again here, but is it not true that people are people and they are going to make really stupid mistakes, Christian or not? I know incest is quite a huge “mistake” if that’s what you call it, but because these stories happened back then, (and who knows what stuff goes on these days), does that mean God made them do it? Did God tell Lot’s daughters that they should sleep with their father? From what I read in Genesis 19 30-38, is that both daughters discussed it and decided for themselves. One scripture that I don’t understand is 31 where it says ""Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth.". Anyone have any explanation of what the customs were back then and/or what this scripture is referring to?

94

Dreamer, you have a good point; however I should remind you that in the Old Testament, there was (to my knowledge) no acknowledgement that you could be forgiven from sin. The rule was “do it or die.” As with Lot’s wife - going to the beginning of the story, the reason the daughters thought there was no one else was because they had just fled from the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah. Lot’s wife didn’t make it because she merely LOOKED BACK to see the destruction. Now, if you’re gonna be punished for looking backwards, shouldn’t your husband be punished for getting inebriated (to the point where he knew not what he did), and shouldn’t your daughters get punished for liquoring up dear old dad and screwing him? C’mon!

In response to Mighty Maximino, it is never mentioned that the daughters believed their father to be the last man. In the verses just stated by Dreamer, it says “Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.” They wanted to preserve the family line.

Furthermore, Dreamer, I believe they DID sleep with their father because they knew it was what their god wanted. He made promises through family lines and expected those lines to be maintained. David, Abraham, etc… there were promises there, and had the daughters not gotten pregnant from their father, God would have been a liar as no heir could have inherited the promises that took him so many generations to fullfill. Then again, that’s just IMHO.

95

Didn’t they sacrifce animals in atonement for their sins?

Yes, but God sent angels who told them specifically not to look back, but she chose to do what she wanted anyway. From what I’ve heard (though no scripture says), is that she didn’t look back for a “quick glance”, she turned and stared and watched what was happening and then was turned into a pillar of salt.

Yes, but since there were still other people outside of their city that was destroyed, if they had not made the decision to sleep with their father, would they of not had other chances to lie with other men and continue the family line? Or maybe even Lot could have found a new wife?

Where does it say in scripture that “He made promises that he expected to be maintained?”

96

  1. The words “atonement” and “forgiveness” are NOT the same. Atonement is more of a covering up - basically, they sacrificed animals so that their sins were temporarily pushed aside (most believe they were pushed aside till the sacrifice of Jesus… the lamb, you know). As I said, there was no absolute forgiveness if you only believe anywhere in the OT.

  2. All it says is, “but Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.” (Genesis 19:26 NIV) Unless they’re reading from a different version (which is possible) there’s no saying how long she looked back. That being said, the only warning from the angels was, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mointains or you will be swept away!” (Genesis 19:17 NIV) Firstly, the wife wasn’t told any of this - her husband was. Secondly, isn’t it safe to assume the angels were in a hurry and said “don’t look back, and don’t stop” as a sign of their rush? That’s how I would have taken it.

That really doesn’t matter though. All these other unpunished sins were also understood to be sins. The only difference is that Lot’s wife commited a sin dependant on time (it’s not bad to look back… it was only bad to look back at that time period) whereas the husband and daughters commited sins that are always understood as sins (to people of their faith). I understand you’re gonna tell me I’m not god, but I would say the wife’s sin was much less important - it was probably out of forgetfulness. What if her daughter or husband was behind her and she was looking back to see if they were coming?

  1. Yes, they COULD have found other husbands/wives. However, there could be many possible reasons why they could not. Firstly, Judaism and Christianity are patrolineal (meaning your heritage comes from your father). The family name would be dead if only the daughters had children. The father had to have children to maintain the name. Secondly, it says “Lot and his two daughters left Zoar [the place where they escaped to] and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar.” (Genesis 19:30 NIV) This implies that the people of Zoar were either hostile, non-Jews (god was racist back then), or both. This could be why they couldn’t marry other people.

  2. What I meant by god keeping his promises is that many times in the Bible (as with Abraham and David) god had promised to bless the family. Of course, the person who earned the blessing didn’t see it… it was generations down the line (as from David came Jesus… I believe from Abraham came Moses but I could be wrong). I thought such a promise had been made to Lot, but I can’t find it anywhere. I racant that statement as it was probably wrong. Sorry! :slight_smile:

97

  1. I agree

  2. Fair enough, though the she did hear those words no matter how much of a hurry they were in.

  3. That makes sense too, though I wonder whatever happened to Lot and his daughters.

  4. God makes many promises and IMO I don’t think he needs us to go out of our way to fulfill them for him.

Great explanations though. :slight_smile:

98

hijack…

Dreamer, since it seems to just be you and me around here, I’d like to get something straight about the other thread. I really have nothing against you - moreso than the other non-Christians. Honestly, I was EXACTLY where you are. I doubted here and there but for the most part was 100% sure - honestly. I was one of 3 fundamentalist Christians in my entire 147-person graduating class in hs. You can imagine the debates I got in. I even had a teacher fail me because I chose to write a paper on creation science and she believed in evolution (even though another teacher in the same school and from the same subject said she would have given me an A). Some people have been telling you to “get off the cross,” but when it comes to religious debate, we’re ALL victims. Discussion, IMHO, is much better!

I’m sure you can tell from my status (as a non-Christian) that something changed my mind. Let me reiterate what I said a while back: Christianity wasn’t for me - in the end I learned it didn’t make sense to me, and my faith became wishful thinking. However, that’s not how it is with everyone. If Christianity makes sense to you in a way nothing else does, and if it makes you happy, stick with it. No one’s going to figure out religion/faith/god. Anyone who pretends to have it 100% figured out is a liar - to themselves and to the world. K?

99

Just one question for you then mandielise. Did you have a relationship with God? Meaning, besides all the knowledge and believing, did you have a real commune? A sense of God’s presence in your life?

You know I have nothing against you either, or anyone else on this board. I even have some respect for gobear and others who seem to hate the God I love and even the idea of him. We’re all people trying to find our way and though I’ve seem to have found mine, I do respect others who fight for what they believe in and fight against what they do not. That’s just human nature.

100

Actually, when I WAS Christian, I was 100% sure I had a relationship. I wasn’t a Sunday Christian. I know what you mean: I did devotions, prayed intently (not just staring at the ceiling or vocalizing rehearsed lines), listened to Christian music (and REALLY got into it), whenever I’d asked a question I spent hours and hours listening as hard as I could and trying to really prepare my heart to hear what god had to say, you know. Then one day I realized, all the things I thought god had “said” to me were only my own thoughts. Even if they went against what I wanted for myself, they weren’t god’s will, they were based on my fear of being selfish. I only saw them to be god’s will because, in the long run, everything (good, bad, or neutral) works out for the best if you have the right attitude about it. Some people need to attribute this to a god (I should say MANY people)… I don’t. I think it’s the way the world works.

To me, it seemed that I needed to be loved so badly (I really didn’t have many friends) that I latched on to anything that claimed to be love… including god. I also learned from many friends who were of other religions and who had no religion at all. I realized from researching other religions that Christianity is no more based in fact than any many religions. In fact, you know there are Shaman who can get to completely altered states of mind without any drug use (yes, I realize that many Shamanic rituals include drugs). What, then, do you feel as a Christian when you feel god’s hand upon you?

Then it started to really bother me that it was part of my religion to believe that I was right and everyone else was wrong. I had figured out something that no one else could. It was my duty to show others (even if by setting a good example) that my god was best. I had to believe that as sweet and wonderful as my non-Christian friends were, if they weren’t “saved,” they were going to hell.

I just couldn’t live with myself for that. Now, you might see things very differently than I did. In fact, you probably do, and I think that’s great. Again, we should have religious DISCUSSIONS (like this one) instead of debates.

I didn’t even make my decision until after I talked with my friend, Scott (I respected him more than any other Christian I knew, so I gave him the chance to change my mind). He had some good things to say, but it seemed like he was giving me a pre-recorded speech… one that I myself had given many times. That convinced me.

I DID feel guilty for a while after I decided not to be Christian - it was seriously hard the first time I said it too, after Scott and I talked. I always second-guessed myself,
“What if god’s telling me this,”
“No, that’s only in my head,”
“Why am I only running into Christians?”
“Because the only people I know at college are Christians!”
“Why did everyone back home in NY tell me god was sending me to the secular school in Louisiana, instead of the Christian school near home where I wanted to go to?”
“He’s testing my faith,”
“Why would he test it if he knew I would change my mind?”
etc…

In the end, I decided that I have to work on my paranoia! My biggest question was, do I dislike Christianity because it’s not true, or because I want to sin. That held on to me for a while. I DO do some things that are considered sin in the Bible… but I didn’t before I converted, and I was fine with it. I honestly don’t find anything wrong with what I now do. I decided that was absolutely not the case, though many of my Christian friends didn’t believe me - they still don’t.

That was probably what hurt the most. Jessica telling me that I wasn’t Christian cause I wanted to have sex with my bf of a year… while she was continuing to say she was Christian (and here I mean fundie) and all the while having sex with guys as well. I don’t know whether I was hurt cause I was still questioning myself… and I don’t know if she only said that because she felt guilty.

Ok, I think this hijack has lasted long enough. Sorry everyone!!! That’s my story!