"Satanic"- Or Harmless Fun?

Great Debates
101

Sorry mandielise, not so fast! Since you said it was probably just you and I here, I don’t think anyone would mind if we continue “discussing”?

If anyone has a problem with us using this thread to continue discussing, please speak up and we’ll start a new thread. That is if you still want to talk.

When I asked the original question “Did you have a relationship with God?” you answered

I guess what I meant when I asked that question was “Did you LOVE God?”. Did you feel him in your heart? That unexplainable feeling that “comes without understanding”. Did you know he loved you back? For real? Did you trust him enough that when he gave no answers after all your time listening, that it was okay that you did not hear back from him? And one more question - Did you know Jesus in the same way?

I’m not doubting any of the reasons why you changed your faith. I just really would like to know. If you don’t feel like digging that deep, it’s cool. I understand that too.

102

Yes. I thought I had explained it, but I have a tendancy to ramble and loose all intelligibility. It’s hard to say now because I don’t believe in god, so I can’t say “I DID have a relationship with him.” I don’t believe anyone’s up there, so how can I have ever had a relationship with him. So from now on, keep that in mind, and I’ll talk to you as if I were still at that point in my life - it just makes things easier to word.

I DID have a relationship. I depended on him for everything and about 95% of the time there WAS no answer but I assumed that in itself was my answer. God wouldn’t leave me hanging for no reason. I tried to explain before how my devotions worked. They were real quiet time with god - like our own personal chill time.

The reference to Shamans (and their ability to manipulate their own state of consciousness without the use of drugs - though from time to time they DO use drugs) was to show that no god is responsible for that. Yes, I felt something, but as humans we’re extremely powerful when it comes to our own moods and minds. I can lie in bed in my room and listen to Bach and be taken away - if I’m so inclined. Likewise, I can be happy, sad, exhausted, lively, depressed, manic, etc… For the most part it depends on me. Even though I AM manic depressive, I’ve come to learn that I have some say in that - I can control it without medicine if I really want to.

Do you see what I’m getting at? I absolutely felt something at the time that I attributed to god touching me. However, since I became non-Christian I’ve felt that same thing in other situations.

It’s so easy to believe that everything is god… it’s much harder to believe you’re in charge. I know that’s not something most Christians are taught. I know I had been taught that atheists were often too pridefull to accept god - they wanted to be in charge themselves. That really isn’t it. It’s scary knowing that there’s no one who’s got your back, wondering what’ll happen when you die, and going into surgery (which I did this summer) not being positive of the outcome. It’s much easier to believe in god… but should I just do what’s easiest, or what I believe in?

BTW, I like this discussion - so I agree. If anyone wants us to start a new thread, tell us. Otherwise, I’d like to continue it here.

103

I love God. I love him like a Father. He is all that is good, all that is love, all that is holy. I carry on conversations with him like he’s right there in the room with me, and I feel he listens and responds. I am humbled every time I come to worship him. I don’t deserve to be loved by him. I don’t deserve to be able to love him back and know him. When I think of what Jesus gave just so that we could be cleansed by his blood and able to come to God through him, I am humbled again.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that even if I decided one day not to believe in him anymore, he still would be there in my heart. The love I have for him would still be there, as would the love he has for me. I actually did one day “throw in the towel”, so to speak. I told God to just forget it, I wasn’t good enough, I couldn’t handle trying to be a good person anymore, I just wasn’t good at it! Of course I came back because I loved him, and I couldn’t just walk away from someone I love just because I felt I wasn’t good enough to deserve his love back. The thing that keeps me coming back is just that. No matter how well I “Live the Christian Life”, or how I live my entire life, he’s still going to love me.

Sorry I rambled on there. I just feel you didn’t answer the question “Did you LOVE God, and did you feel he LOVED you?” I thought maybe if I explained where I was coming from it might be easier for you to answer. :slight_smile:

104

Ok, everything you just said I can see myself saying. In fact, I’ve probably said that word for word before - and meant it. The problem is that, in the end, if you really don’t believe anything is there, that means nothing has ever been there. That love you felt and that powerlessness in the presence of one so strong - was only your imagination. That’ts why I can’t say “I loved god.” I don’t believe a god is there, so how can I have at any time loved him? However, I did BELIEVE that I loved him and was loved by him.

What you said about carrying on conversations as if he’s in the room with you… I used to do that ALL THE TIME! No matter where I was or what I was doing, he was on my mind and I was constantly talking with him - almost as if he WAS my mind. That was a hard habit to break once my mind changed altogether.

As I said before, I know EXACTLY where you are right now, hun, cause I’ve been there. But it’s like the musical Annie. She loves her parents so much and feels their love for her. She waits for them to come for her - then one day she finds out they’ve been dead for a long time, and no one’s coming for her. That’s kinda how I felt. The emotions and actions I had were real… but they weren’t what I thought they were at the time.

I know you’re probably having a hard time understanding this. How can my mind have changed so drastically if I really had had a loving, father-daughter relationship with god himself? I’m not mad at him. I’m not frustrated with him. I don’t think I’m better than him, and I don’t try to keep others from him… I merely don’t believe he exists. I hold more weight to the human ability to manipulate our own emotions, thoughts, and experiences than I do to a personal god as is described in the bible. If you want to believe in something hard enough, you will - and I did.

Christianity has won such an audience because it has made itself easy to believe. Many people can believe completely different things and still consider themselves Christians. Some think you need to be saved and every bad thing you do won’t matter, others believe you have only to be a good person, and others fall somewhere between. However, if you doubt god for a second, you’re sinning. Who in their right mind would want to risk going to hell just so they can think for themselves?

I understand you don’t see Christianity as cruel in any way - you see it as god giving us a handout, rather than an ultimatum. However, that’s not how many people (myself included) see it. You have to believe or you’re going to suffer. If you doubt me, you’re going to suffer. Do this, or you’re going to suffer. It’s the calling card of a dictator.

Look at things like censorship! Christians have become censors in this country, but isn’t that something we associate with dictators (Castro, Hitler, etc…)? If no one can read the other side to an argument, they can’t go against you. Heck, I know had I grown up in Germany when Hitler was in power, unable to learn of human rights and decency, I probably would have fallen for his story. It made sense - I know that’s not a popular thing to say, but his ideas made very much sense. He was still a monster, but it’s easy to see how he won such a huge following.

Your god does the same thing. I’m fairly sure there aren’t too many fundies who would be caught dead reading a book of witchcraft. Why? Because they feel that’s evil and god doesn’t want them associating with that stuff. However, if you read a real book of witchcraft (I have a friend who’s a witch) you see that they’re not at all evil. They learn from the start that anytime you hurt someone (no matter how good your intentions were), it’ll come back to you tenfold. They’re not doing satan’s bidding! But they’re banned because it makes sense and god’s scared of that.

What about sex? Even if you believe homosexuality or polygamy is wrong, why ban it? If you want to be married to only one person of the opposite gender, go ahead - but don’t make someone else follow your rules. You have no right. Fundies don’t want these things in America because they’re scared of them - but why?

Dangit! I went off on a tangent again! Sorry!!!

105

Interesting tangent, though! :slight_smile:

I’m really impressed by this:

Not many people realize that, while Hitler was indeed a monster, he gained a large following not because they also were monsters, but because he played upon them by offering both a scapegoat (he offered the Jews; Christianity offers Satan) and hope (Hitler offered a way out of Germany’s horrendous economic situation; Christianity offers the Passion of Jesus as a blood-redemption).

mandielise’s point about censorship relates back to the OP; many Christians believe that if you read certain books or play certain games that you open your mind enough to let Satan in. I personally feel that a closed mind is more dangerous than an open one.

dreamer, this is an attitude I find among many Christians, and it is one that makes me uneasy:

It sounds almost like an encouragement of low self-esteem, and I know that many people (I’m not saying you, I’m saying many people) are drawn to religions of any stripe because of their low self-esteem.

dreamer, I just want to say that I think you seem like a brave and good-hearted person. If your religion works for you, I’m glad. Please be assured that although I disagree with you, it doesn’t mean I dislike you personally.

106

I understand. I just don’t know how you could turn away so easily and all of a sudden think that he doesn’t exist anymore and know your right.

I disagree. IMO this message board has proved that’s not true!

What kind of sin does doubt fall under?

No, I see the creator loving his creation. The God who is the A-Z, the First and the Last, the Father of the Universe who knows why he created us, how things would be, and has a plan that is beyond all human understanding, but a plan that is (though hard to see as we are living it) good.

The thing is that we didn’t make the rules and we can’t change them. Take this analogy for instance. You’ve been asked to go to San Jose and told that someone who loves you is waiting there for you. You stop and ask someone for directions “Do you know the way to San Jose?”, you say. They grab a map, open it up and tell you “There is only one road that leads to San Jose. Stay on that road, don’t veer off, and you will go straight to San Jose. There may be other exits that say “San Sebastion”, or “San Jenkins”, don’t take those. Stay on this road only”. And then you say “I don’t wanna go that way, isn’t there any other way?” Then the person says “Well, this is the ONLY road to San Jose and if you try to take another way, you’ll wind up in another town that’s not San Jose. There are towns around here that are not safe, in fact they are dangerous and you could get hurt. Please stay on this road so you will make it to San Jose safely.” So then you say “I don’t want to go that way because I’ll have to spend extra money on gas and the roads aern’t paved and it’s raining and I don’t want to get stuck somewhere”. And the man says, “I’m trying to help you. Do you want to go to San Jose or not? You can go somewhere else if you’d like, but again, this is the only road to San Jose”.

Are you going to argue with him or just go to San Jose?

107

It’s not that I don’t have an open mind. I believe it’s best for Christians to know about Satan as much as we know about God. He has power to influence and we have to be prepared. In my first post in this thread I said playing “Magic” made me feel uncomfortable, not that I was afraid I was “letting Satan in”. I believe spiritual warfare is happening on a constant basis and I am interested in how Satan works, his doings in this world, and his plans.

What I mean by that has by no means anything to do with low-self-esteem. God gave me commandments which I do not always follow - yet he still loves me. I doubt him sometimes - yet he still loves me. God gave me an incredible life, abounding blessings that I can’t even begin to explain to you how wonderful they are. Things I don’t deserve in this life, yet here they are. I dont know if that makes sense, but the fact that he loves me unconditionally despite all the things I am and have done, is just amazing to me.

Ditto Squish :slight_smile:

108

<soap box> One thing I love about God is that I have fought Him on a few occassions in my life and He has won everytime. He’s the only person I’ve challenged and always lost to.

I’ve told Him I hate Him, and I’ve told Him He didn’t exist, and I’ve told Him all sorts of things and He is still Him. I’ve told Him to stay away from me, and He did. I’ve asked Him to come to me and He has.

The best part about Him is that He is there ready to listen, and quick to act when asked. </soap box>

It’s funny to me that there was a discussion in here about good and evil and it has come down to a discussion on the existence of God.

I think we all know there is good and evil. Some things we know are good, other things we know are evil. It’s the way we interpret our actions or justify the ones we want to do that makes us do all the talking about it. But the bottom line always seems to come down to God, the eternal referee of sorts.

If there is no God, no objective source, then you can call whatever you want to be whatever you want. But we all know that the rest of things seem to be what they already are. 1+1=2, no matter how badly we want it to =3 sometimes. Real freedom only comes after you discover that 1+1=2 all the time, then you know where to go, what to do, how to act. If 1+1=?, then you are a mess, stuck at square one trying to determine the unknown.

The real discussion is Who is He? He’s there, but Who we say He is comes down to how much we have looked for Him, and how much He has shown to each. That’s the mystery so deliciously savored, like Belgian chocolate, it looks simple, but comes alive only once accepted.

cheers!

109

Welcome to the Straight Dope TalkingHead! :slight_smile:

110

Well, the OP specifically stated “Satanic,” not “evil,” which is why the JudeoChristian god is being discussed.

Or, as I said earlier: God, the original terrorist. As soon as I dig my Bible out from the box of books in the closet, I’d like to start a new thread (springing from discussions in this thread and in the BBQ Pit thread), “Is God evil?” After all, the Bible–God’s own word, if you believe it–gives ample evidence that God approves of and condones all manner of things that most humans agree are evil.

It can be argued that there is no evil that is not good for someone, and no good that is not evil for someone. Take Hitler, since we’ve already referred to him. The Holocaust was easily one of the most evil events of modern times–and yet, without the Holocaust, anti-Semitism would still be flourishing and the US would probably never have supported the creation of the state of Israel and would not today be Israel’s biggest supporter.

As dreamer can tell ya, there’s much more to the discussion of God (the JudeoChristian one) than that! :smiley: Do a search and you’ll see how many different threads there have been on the matter in just the past couple of months!

Welcome to the SDMB–hope you have as interesting a time here as I have!

111

Patiently awaits Squish’s new GD thread. :slight_smile:

112

Ok, Dreamer, what I meant by “you probably don’t understand” was that you wouldn’t understand why I had changed my mind. Then you said that you understand, but you don’t get how I could change my mind!

I probably shouldn’t have said that Christianity made itself “easy” to believe - more like Christianity made itself an imperative to believe. It’s the ultimate dictate: Do it or die. The differences between this and your road analogy are that:

  1. The guy giving directions is not all powerful and able to make the road easier.
  2. Said guy did not create the road.
  3. Said guy didn’t know you were coming (and omnipotent god would have)

You can’t get mad at someone for giving you directions. Besides, he’s given you a map that you can probably trust. In the cast of the Bible, there’s really no evidence for it (I was into creation science for 5 years and wrote my senior thesis on it, argue at your own risk).

So basically, in your senario, you should be lost on your way to San Jose for someone who loves you (because a friend of a friend of the brother of second cousin of your best friend told you he was there). Someone hands you a map that shows the whole world 1000 years ago (so you can kinda guess where to find San Jose, but you’re not quite sure what the map wants you to do about it). And someone who’s not even a local says “You HAVE to take this road. Don’t leave it, cause it’s the only road to San Jose.” If you didn’t follow that road, I wouldn’t blame you.

Onto Talkinghead. I hate arguing semantics, but have you ever heard that 1+1=3 in fact? For all high values of 1 (basically everything between 1.5-2) the result would be 3 rather than 2 - and yes, many times numbers are rounded down. I know what you meant to say, but this is just another example of how there CAN be variety and objectivity to life. Even among fundamentalist Christians - who supposedly all believe in the Bible, the whole Bible and nothing but the Bible - people disagree about what certain things mean. Just saying that any one god (even the Judeo-Christian one) is the right one doesn’t change that people have different ideas of what is right and wrong. Heck, the Catholics all have to Pope to dictate what god means, and they don’t all agree!

Isn’t it more logical to believe that there are just certain things that make sense to everyone as right and wrong (love for family and friends, compassion, courtesy, etc… vs murder, rage, and theft), and there are other things that fall into the cracks (homosexuality, magic, drugs, etc…).

In conclusion your quote: “The real discussion is Who is He? He’s there, but Who we say He is comes down to how much we have looked for Him, and how much He has shown to each.”

I disagree. If it was about how much we had looked for him, I’d still be Christian - no doubt in my mind. I searched the texts, I searched the philosophers (mainly C S Lewis), and I searched my heart. There’s no god there. Now, if you actually believe it’s because he didn’t want to show himself to me, explain why? Doesn’t it say “Ask and it shall be given unto you. Seek and ye shall find”??? In the end, I still haven’t quite found what I was looking for. I don’t know what I believe - only what I DON’T believe.

113

[nitpick]
The Satan of Judaism and the Satan of Christianity are two completly different entities with two completely different purposes. They should not be confused, the them of the OP refers to the Christian Satan.
[/nitpick]

114

[nitpick response :wink: ]
The Satan in the New Testament performs basically the same duties that the Satan in the Old Testament does; Christianity’s further a-Biblical recasting of Satan and conflatation of Satan with Pan, the Green Man, Cernunnos, etc. notwithstanding.[/nitpick response]

115

You and me need to start a bank, because the last time I tried to make your argument to them, they laughed at me and set my balance by the 1+1=2 rule. I want very badly for it to equal three, but unfortunately it doesn’t, no matter how much I talk to the bank manager.

There are things that fall into cracks, whether it was wrong for me to spend $4.20 on a gigantic frappachino after lying to that bum and telling him I had no change, for instance… but that didn’t change the fact that I had $4.20 in my pocket. Reality is still real no matter what words I put onto it.

good for you! that’s where I was – I didn’t want the puffy bearded grandfatherly lacely robed candy picture everyone presented to me. I wanted a rough and grisly, scarred God who understood suffering and just exactly what the mud pit was like I was left to live in when I was younger.

I wanted to know a god who was in the trenches with me, a god who had confronted evil face to face.

The question of suffering is not treated well anymore, so you are left with few choices – Camus had one answer, and the Crucifixion supplies another…

Most of the other things I heard had to do with pink-robed, candy-laced fairy tales that had nothing to do with reality for me. I still reject them because they aren’t reality.

Now, whether playing Magic! or Harry Potter is evil, well, I think I have digressed and beg mercy that this is not so far from OP that I’m in trouble.

116

Ok, to get one thing straight, TalkingHead - from the start I believed in the same god you’re talking about: the one who suffered at the cruxifiction and all. I never bothered with “the puffy bearded grandfatherly lacely robed candy picture.” I’m really getting sick of trying to explain to y’all (mainly my girl dreamer) that the fact that I changed my mind doesn’t mean I didn’t believe what you do every bit as much as you do now. I know the difference between mainstream Christianity and fundies - I was one of them for 6 years. Just because I leave out one or two of the millions of things that go along with those beliefs doesn’t mean that I missed a step, k?

Do you think I’m ignorant, do you think I’m like so many other Christians who really don’t know what’s in the Bible, or are y’all just scared that if I could change my beliefs so drastically maybe you will to? What if you’re wrong now and you’re wasting your lives talking to the ceiling. Then again, what if I’m wrong and I shoulda stuck with what I had. No one can answer that, so let’s not pretend we have to, k?

Back to the argument, the money issue I discussed is real. Let me try to explain it in another way: Mainly when related to computers, there are times when one ALWAYS rounds down. That means if you have 1.9+1.7 that will in reality equal 3.6, right? Well, it would appear on the screen (once the decimals are dropped off) 1+1=3. Do you understand now? That’s all I was saying - it’s actually a common mind game.

Also, when you said:

"I think we all know there is good and evil. Some things we know are good, other things we know are evil. It’s the way we interpret our actions or justify the ones we want to do that makes us do all the talking about it. But the bottom line always seems to come down to God, the eternal referee of sorts.

If there is no God, no objective source, then you can call whatever you want to be whatever you want. But we all know that the rest of things seem to be what they already are. "

I took it to mean that you believe there are absolute right and wrongs that we should all know and God’s the one who keeps us following them. My point was to illustrate that there are some things that we don’t all agree are good or bad. Furthermore, the ref doesn’t teach the rules, he only enforces them (every basketball player knows that traveling is a violation, it’s the ref who penalizes the players for traveling). Also, it should be noted that the ref didn’t come up with the rules.

117

<snort> Better pick another one, then, because the JC god you’re talking about created evil and suffering.

You seem to be arguing that God=reality. Prove it.

118

Squish, what he’s arguing (I believe) is that Jesus was not just god but man. That means he had all the powers and respect of a deity, but he felt the pain and suffering of a human being - that’s a huge point in Christianity.

It seems here we’re arguing using ideas that aren’t fully accepted. Talkinghead states that god has been “in the trenches” which is not a fact - we don’t all believe that. Squish states that the same god “created evil and suffering” which is again not a fact - and not everyone believes that.

While I agree with Squish on most points and understand why he doesn’t buy Talkinghead’s argument, I’ve been where Talkinghead is and I also understand why he won’t accept Squish’s argument. Let’s argue fact rather than belief here, please (and I acknowledge that I have a long way to go with this proposition as well)?

119

Here’s a question for gobear:

As you admit yourself, it cannot be proven that there is no god. As such, not believing in god is just as much a matter of faith as believing. The truly rational thing to do regarding the question of whether or not god exists is to just say, “Hey, got me.” To form an opinion one way or the other is, practically by definition, an act of faith. As such, an active atheist (as opposed to a mere agnostic) telling a believer in god that he’s irrational and ignorant because he relies on faith is pretty ironic, no?

Now, it is possible to make an educated guess based on existing evidence. For example, in the case of Chirstianity, you can look at historical records and see how well they mesh with the Bible. You can also interpret the Bible in a number of ways, from strict fundamentalism, to more lenient and metaphorical interpretations. If you really do your homework, you’ll find that Christianity makes a far better case than most atheists give it credit for - most of it is largely consistent and logical. And a lot of the more prudish tenets (no tatoos or piercings, eg) make a lot of sense in the context of the times. If Christianity is a big giant swindle, it’s a remarkably convincing one.

Bottom line, to claim that someone believes in Christianity (or a number of other things) is simply ignorant is… well, it’s ignorant. Now, certainly if someone believes in something that’s demonstrably false - that the world is flat, for example - you can say they’re ignorant and be correct. Most religions don’t fall into that category, though.
Jeff

120

Despite everything you continually say about how your relationship with God was “just like mine”, it’s things like this that make me wonder. Did you know God or did you not? If you searched your heart and he never showed himself to you, how could you have LOVED him?