Sauron vs the Sith

(quote abbreviated)

You’ve phrased this well; but I’d suggest a twist to it.
In Tolkien’s universe, I think I could say that straight-up power confrontations like this don’t tend to work out well. In both The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, crucial plot developments rest upon weak characters whose actions bring the strong to ruin. In The Silmarillion, you have more stories of classic heroic protagonists; but they usually end in disaster.

So: in Tolkien’s universe, it seems to me that the Sauron/Sith Lord confrontation would be likely to wind up rather like the story of Saruman; a couple of adolescent hobbits would “accidentally” meet the Ents, who had been ignored for centuries, … and so on.

I think this is a characteristic of Tolkien’s universe. It doesn’t lend itself to power gaming; the universe is structured and maintained in such a way that those who see only power (Denethor? Saruman? Feanor? Sauron himself?) will be rudely surprised…

Well, I was having fun…:slight_smile:

Okay, those Sith dudes always come in pairs, right? So, if they get to tag-team, then Sauron does too. Sauron’s partner in mayhem in Melkor. In a match based on power and evil, I’ll go with JRRT’s boys.

Even though Melkor got beaten by a gu-url.

And a hot gu-url by all reports, too!

Tho lets face it, She just dazzled him with her beauty until he nodded off, then she cut and ran as fast as she could. Not a decisive defeat at all.

She did defeat Sauron outright, though.

Galadriel versus Jabba. Each control a tiny fiefdom which they try to keep from committing to one side or the other. Each probably has the strongest willpower and outright power amongst the “ordinary” creatures in the world (that is, those who are not Maia nor Maia-related, and those who do not have a naturally strong Force power.)

Galadriel would win in a straight-up battle (cmon, Jabba can’t move!), but it would be interesting to see what her magical powers could do if she were to walk into Jabba’s place for a chat.

Ah, but not just ANY girl. Remember that, basically, her grandparents (all four of them) were Iluvatar!

I wonder what a gu-url is. Is that a protocol that takes out the TCP?? :smiley:

I’m pretty sure, mano a mano, a well-rested (meaning he’s not in-between reconsititution after being caught in some cataclysm or something) Sauron could have squashed the Sith either alone or together like bugs. He’d probably eat force lighting for lunch, and I imagine a guy who can raise volcanoes and control the weather would have a few tricks up his sleeve to deal with force-given powers. You’re talking about somebody with abilities on the order of a Biblical Archangel, or at the least one of the Cherubim. A lightsabre, though, might make things difficult. Really, a lightsabre in the hands of almost any capable soldier might be more than most Middle Earther’s could reckon with, be they Man, Elf, or Maia. It’s such a huge technological advantage, I’m not sure it’s fair to arm Darth Sideous with a lightsabre vs. Sauron with a big ole’ mace. Either they both get medieval weapons, or lightsabres, so as not to skew the results ridiculously. In such a matchup, the Sith go down, IMO.

The idea I have with lightsabres is that only Jedis can wield them because of their extra-sensory perception. Any mundane mortal who dare wields them will end up dissecting themselves. That why only Jedis use them. That’s the impression I get.

As for Sauron versus Darth Sideous with a lightsaber – Have you seem the beginning of FoTR where Sauron basically swung everyone of their feet with a single swing of his Spiked Mace of Wickedness? His blows doesn’t have to connect. Doubt Sideous’ puny Force Push can deflect them.

Failing which, after Darth Sideous cuts off Sauron’s hand, he would not be able resist the lure of the Ring…and wouldl end up being corrputed by Sauron or betrayed by the One Ring, like Islidur. Speaking of that, would the Nazguls be capable of taking out Darth Sideous + The One Ring?

:confused: I don’t understand why weilding a lightsabre would be such a challenge for non-Jedi. Han Solo even fires one up to cut open one of those snow-kangaroo things. Lightsabres are probably, uh, very light, unlike your average broadsword, and if you can swing a broadsword around without lopping off a leg, I don’t see why a lightsabre would me more of a problem. Yeah, a regular guy might not be able to deflect arrows or whatever, but Sauron was no regular guy. Even High Elves in ME have some pretty amazing powers of perception, including a measure of precognition. I figure whatever an Elf can do, Sauron can do better. He slew Gil-Galad, after all.

And this was before he was diminished by the forging of the One Ring.

I tremble to mess with the tale of Beren and Luthien, as their names are engraved on John and Edith’s tombstones and all. But I kinda get the feeling that the Sauron/Thû of that story is something of a holdover of Tolkien’s earliest iterations of his First Age legends. I see that Sauron as a bit like the Necromancer of the Hobbit, someone who had to be beefed-up later to fit in not only with the LOTR’s story, but also with the more terrifying and potent Leutenant of Morgoth, greatest of the Maiar (certainly more powerful than Gothmog) that Tolkien had made him when revising the Silmarillion, around the time of the writing of LOTR. Only, the changes never were made, and couldn’t be explained anyway by the loss of the Ring, as they were with the Necromancer.

I tend to see it this way: The Hobbit is the Professor’s first work, and at that point he only has a children story in mind. His unusual love for languages and invention of a new imaginary world to go with it may lead to some elements within The Hobbit.

I have no idea when the good Professor thought of the account of Beren and Luthien, but in so way, J.R.R Tolkien identifies himself Beren. It must be an important story to him, and the key point is Luthien resucing Beren from some great evil. It may not have to be Sauron, but in the context of Middle Earth, it would be Sauron.

I believe it is also by the time when Lord of the Rings was in conception, J.R.R Tolkien makes the Nercomancer “Sauron”. I believe, IIRC, that most of the elements fall into places during the writing of LoTR. The account of Beren and Luthien may be written after LoTR, but it seems that J.R.R Tolkien has the concept of the story in his mind all along.

Just random IMHOs on my part.

Sauron was actually strengthened by the forging of the one ring, Quartz. It let him tap into the taint that Melkor had left within Arda itself.

Or so JRRT’s notes imply. Check out “Morgoth’s Ring” in the HOME series.

All of Melkor’s and Sauron’s deeds and creations made them stronger overall - else they would not have done them. Most limited the maker in the sense that it sent some of their power out into the world. The Ring was a better bargain, but same principle.

Which brings my mind back to Jedi, Sith, and lightsabers. True, Han used a saber like a chainsaw on Hoth, but he never tried to fight with one. Do you remeber how often, and how hard, you conked the back of your head when first trying numchucks? Or the stings and welts from your first bullwhip practice? I see light saber use as the same type of thing. Start whirling it around to deflect laser blasts, chop droids, and counter other saber users, and pretty soon you lose a major third of one side of your own face.

Unless you have an in to The Force. The Force allows you to see and act more clearly and much more quickly, and apparantly surely. So light sabers in the hands of a Force weilder are a very potent weapon. Didn’t Vader imply that it took Force mastery to even make one/ So…, are light sabers the Jedi/Sith equivilent to Rings of Power?

Hmm…

Three Green Lightsabers for the Elven Kings under the sky,
Seven Gold Lightsabers for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for the mortal men doomed to be hooded heroes,
One for the Dark Sith on his Dark Throne,
In the Death Star where the Shadow lies.
One Lightsaber to rule them, On Lightsaber to find them,
One Lightsaber to bring them all and to cut of Luke Skywalker’s hand,
In the Death Star where the Shadow lies.
Serious, the Rings of Power are in a leauge beyond the Lightsabers. Lightsabers are for offence and defence, while the Rings are capable of different things - bring hope to others, becomes invisible, create gold from gold and numerous others, just to name some.

However, a Jedi is also capable by himself without his Lightsaber (though the movie protrays Jedis without lightsabers at a distinct disadvantage) - he does not need his lightsabers to wield his Force Powers, whereas a ringbearer without his ring will lost much of his powers.

Yes - but after forging the One Ring, without the Ring he was diminished. He put a large part of himself into the Ring, didn’t he?