Saying Hot Chick = Being A Misogynist Asshole

[Acsenray]

@Starving_Artist

I’d have more to say on this subject …

Dear god, there’s more …

[Acsenray]

@thirdname

Then why call it “patriarchy” if you’re talking about things that women do just as much as men? It seems your ideology holds that women are never responsible for their words or actions and everything they do or say that you don’t like is somehow the fault of men.

Men do/say something you don’t approve of = patriarchy/misogyny = men’s fault
Women do/say something you don’t approve of = patriarchy/“internalized misogyny” = also men’s fault

Is this really just a matter of misunderstanding definitions of words?

If so, let’s see if this helps you—

From Wiktionary —

1. (anthropology, historical) A social system in which the father is head of the household, having authority over women and children, and in which lineage is traced through the male line.

2. A power structure in which men are dominant.

So you see how it’s possible for both men and women to act in ways that perpetuate patriarchy?

[andros]

@Acsenray

Dear god, there’s more …

There’s always more with frightened entitled old white men.

[Alvin_Karpis]

@Alvin_Karpis

What are some non-degrading ways of referring to a person who would otherwise be called a hot chick?

I mean, would hot woman or hot mama be OK? Maybe just hottie?

Or is it the attention to her hotness that’s degrading? I’m not sure why it should be, since that’s just one of the facts about her. Are synonyms equally degrading? Sexy chick, sexy woman, sexy mama: Are they symptoms of chauvinist piggery?

Is good looking also verboten? Dig that good looking chick, woman, mama!

Or are they OK; it’s just the crude word hot that’s objectionable?

Somebody let me in on the secret code. :

[Beckdawrek]

There is no secret. Don’t call women, men, or people demeaning names of any kind. So simple. Easy. You never have to think about it.
If your wife or girlfriend and you want to call each other pet names, then go right ahead and do it. But a random woman in a random place doesnt need or want your comment on her beauty or state of dress. Easy. You don’t even have try real hard.

[Kimstu]

@Starving_Artist

[…] there is a measure of satisfaction to be found in the camaraderie of other men who agree that yeah, that chick is hot! It gives us common ground to bond over, and in a small way, an experience to share. […]

And this is what you see when you read something like, “Damn, they moved that hot chick so Condi Rice could have her seat!” Offending women is the furthest thing from a guy’s mind when he writes something like that. It’s merely an attempt to garner agreement and companionship in mourning the loss of the good-looking woman he was enjoying looking at. […]

For example, I’ve become close friends recently with the younger brother of a female friend. […] I happened to mention to him the other day that a certain young woman who works at a store near his house was transferring to a store in a different location. […]

To you this probably looks like male assholism at its finest. To us, it was merely a way to jokingly bond with each other over our mutual loss of this good-looking girl that we both enjoyed seeing from time to time. For some reason men like to commiserate with each other over good-looking women we know we can’t have.

Nobody cares how two or more consenting adult men (stretching a point here for your 17-year-old friend) choose to “jokingly bond” with each other when they’re alone. Knock yourselves out.

The problem is when a man (like the poster whose remark launched this thread) takes it for granted that any situation is appropriate for him to “jokingly bond” in this way, even when he’s not alone with other consenting adult men (or other consenting adult fellow bonders who don’t happen to be men).
What’s underlying that behavior is the entrenched sexist assumption that men’s sexualized thoughts are always relevant and deserving of attention, no matter what the circumstances.

That’s not a valid assumption in today’s world, and the behavior it’s promoting is inappropriate and rude.

@Starving Artist

If a woman were to overhear me say something she found hurtful, and she told me that she found it hurtful and asked me please to not say things like that, or at least not in her presence, I’d be very likely to apologize, to tell her I didn’t mean for it to come across like that, and then I’d try to be more careful in the future.

Well, do you also require, say, black people to ask you politely to change your behavior before you’ll stop using the n-word in their presence? Do you require your co-workers to ask you politely to change your behavior before you’ll stop urinating in the office wastebasket?

I very much doubt it. There are certain baselines of civilized behavior that are expected from people by default, not as voluntary concessions granted as a favor in response to polite requests.

Not assuming that your sexualized thoughts are always automatically relevant and okay to express is now gaining widespread recognition as one of those baselines. Keeping your trap shut about your penisfeelings when you aren’t sure your situation and your company are appropriate for talking about penisfeelings is part of the ordinary civilized behavior expected of you by default, not solicited as a favor.

@Alvin Karpis

Or is it the attention to her hotness that’s degrading?

Please re-read the above remarks in this quote. Nobody cares what you personally think about some woman’s hotness or what you say about it in the company of other consenting people. The problem is when you take it for granted you should be able to freely share your thoughts about her hotness irrespective of the circumstances and the company.

[expectopatronum]

@Starving_Artist

I’d have more to say on this subject but work beckons.

Keep it to yourself, you pedo-apologizing, rapist defending, misogynistic shitrag.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@chaika

This thread and the one that precipitated it are perfect, absolutely perfect illustrations of the culture and climate of the SDMB that women have been objecting to for years. Some of the usual suspects (i.e., the posters who can always be counted on to express sexist attitudes) have rocked up. And the same tired old notions have been rolled out yet again.

An incomplete list of these depressingly predictable attitudes:

• It’s PC gone mad, we can’t say anything anymore. Subsection: white men are the real victims. …

Setting irony aside, arguments listed have been made exclusively by American conservative male posters. With the possible exception of this one:

• When presented with statistical evidence about the prevalence of sexual harassment, this evidence is ignored, the source is discounted, and/or nitpicking of irrelevant details occurs.

Nitpicking and evaluating evidence is what we do here. It’s part of this board’s mission. Evidence must be weighed: I’m not just going to swallow it without inspection.

[expectopatronum]

@Alvin Karpis

What are some non-degrading ways of referring to a person who would otherwise be called a hot chick?

@susan

“Doctor.”

This deserves a mic drop.

[Beckdawrek]

Guys, if you wouldn’t like it said to your daughter or wife, it’s not a good idea to say it about somebody else’s daughter or wife. Keep that in mind the next time you are out and about. It’s very simple.

[Alvin_Karpis]

@Beckdawrek

There is no secret. Don’t call women, men, or people demeaning names of any kind. So simple. Easy. You never have to think about it.
If your wife or girlfriend and you want to call each other pet names, then go right ahead and do it. But a random woman in a random place doesnt need or want your comment on her beauty or state of dress. Easy. You don’t even have try real hard.

Trouble is, I don’t know what does and doesn’t count as a demeaning name. I rather doubt it’s possible to give a clear objective definition.“Demeaning” seems to be in the ear of the beholder. What a random woman doesn’t need or want when I’m not talking to her is no business of mine. If she would have been offended if she had heard me doesn’t concern me in the slightest. Offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder, not in the words of the speaker.

But I think you’re not really talking about what’s offensive so much as about what’s proper. It’s simply improper to comment on a woman’s looks, period, regardless of the words used. This smacks of the Victorian era, and I’m not sure who is obliged to accept it.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Alvin_Karpis

What a random woman doesn’t need or want when I’m not talking to her is no business of mine. If she would have been offended if she had heard me doesn’t concern me in the slightest. Offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder, not in the words of the speaker.

It is wholly defensible to not care about what others think of your words, deeds, or behaviors. If you are a non-social animal.

You are permitted to do all sorts of things in public, including harassment and public nudity. Similarly law enforcement is entitled to arrest you for illegal acts. And others are entitled to laugh at you for your acts that are legal but clueless or sociopathic. Freedom!

Here’s some advice though Alvin: try bathing now and then. Sure there’s no law that says you have to. But other people don’t like excessive body odor. I know you don’t care if others are offended by this or other things. And excessive body odor is in the nose of the beholder. Still: it’s smart to take a shower occasionally.

[kenobi_65]

@Alvin_Karpis

But I think you’re not really talking about what’s offensive so much as about what’s proper. It’s simply improper to comment on a woman’s looks, period, regardless of the words used. This smacks of the Victorian era, and I’m not sure who is obliged to accept it.

If that’s truly what you’re taking away from this discussion, then I think you’re badly misinterpreting what people are saying.

For purposes of discussion, let’s lay out five scenarios, in descending order of relationship between you and the female listener.

1. Your spouse or romantic partner. In this case, she probably will appreciate you noticing and complimenting her on her looks, but this is, very likely, going to be dependent on the situation:

• If the two of you are in the midst of a romantic evening, absolutely.
• If the two of you are getting ready to go out for the evening, very probably yes.
• If she’s trying on a new outfit, just came home with a new hairstyle, etc., very probably yes.
• If she’s just spent the afternoon working in the yard, or cleaning the house, and is sweaty, dirty, and tired…probably no.

Depending on context, occasion, and the tastes of your romantic partner, she might even like to be called a “hot chick” by you.

2. An intended or potential romantic partner. If you’re on a first date with a woman, it’s very likely acceptable to compliment your date on her appearance. If you’re at a bar or club, and see someone you’d like to get to know, it might be acceptable, but it could well stray into “bad pick-up line” territory. In either context, “hot chick” probably has a reasonably high chance of being seen as a turn-off, at least.

3. Other social acquaintances (like a female friend with whom you don’t have a romantic relationship). Depending on the woman, and the nature of your friendship, a compliment about her appearance, such as “that’s a great outfit” or “I like your new hairstyle” might be perfectly acceptable, and appreciated. Again, it depends on the friendship.

4. Co-workers and colleagues. Unless your female co-worker is someone with whom you have a good friendship, comments or compliments about appearance are just not a good idea. (And, even if that colleague is a good friend, it still might not be a great idea.)

5. Random woman you see. This definitely gets into the area that a number of women in this thread have already discussed: the tendency of some men to feel the need to make comments about appearance to women that they don’t even know. This is rarely, if ever, welcome, particularly if the compliment is along the lines of “hot chick.”

Does that make sense?

[coffeecat]

@Alvin_Karpis

Trouble is, I don’t know what does and doesn’t count as a demeaning name. I rather doubt it’s possible to give a clear objective definition.

A demeaning name is one that most people addressed by it consider demeaning.

It’s simply improper to comment on a woman’s looks, period, regardless of the words used. This smacks of the Victorian era, and I’m not sure who is obliged to accept it.

So a lot of women are a little Victorian. Women are weird. So are men. So are you. If people were logical, they wouldn’t be offended by anything. But they’re not logical and, God help us, we’re stuck with them.

[Malleus_Incus_Stapes]

Congratulations, Starving Artist, you are the second person on my ignore list. Why, I feel nearly as happy as a 50’s housewife at the prospect!

[kenobi_65]

@Malleus_Incus_Stapes

Congratulations, Starving Artist, you are the second person on my ignore list. Why, I feel nearly as happy as a 50’s housewife at the prospect!

Be careful, Malleus, you might come down with the vapours if you aren’t careful.

[Beckdawrek]

@Alvin_Karpis

Trouble is, I don’t know what does and doesn’t count as a demeaning name. I rather doubt it’s possible to give a clear objective definition.“Demeaning” seems to be in the ear of the beholder. What a random woman doesn’t need or want when I’m not talking to her is no business of mine. If she would have been offended if she had heard me doesn’t concern me in the slightest. Offensiveness is in the ear of the beholder, not in the words of the speaker.

But I think you’re not really talking about what’s offensive so much as about what’s proper. It’s simply improper to comment on a woman’s looks, period, regardless of the words used. This smacks of the Victorian era, and I’m not sure who is obliged to accept it.

I am gonna give you a little list of the inappropriate things I have been called:
Babe
Honey
Sweet thang
Girlie
Bitch
Cutie
Blondie and dumb blond
Ice cold frigid twat ( one time)
Olive Oyl
There are plenty more that I haven’t been called. I have to admit I have never been called ‘hot chick’ but I have heard it said about women. Others can add to the list.

[octopus]

@Beckdawrek

I am gonna give you a little list of the inappropriate things I have been called:
Babe
Honey
Sweet thang
Girlie
Bitch
Cutie
Blondie and dumb blond
Ice cold frigid twat ( one time)
Olive Oyl
There are plenty more that I haven’t been called. I have to admit I have never been called ‘hot chick’ but I have heard it said about women. Others can add to the list.

I’m all for freedom of speech and such however “Olive Oyl” is fighting words!

[Acsenray]

@Alvin_Karpis

Trouble is, I don’t know what does and doesn’t count as a demeaning name. I rather doubt it’s possible to give a clear objective definition.

You don’t need an “objective definition.” You just need to listen to people when they tell you want they consider demeaning.

But I think you’re not really talking about what’s offensive so much as about what’s proper. It’s simply improper to comment on a woman’s looks, period, regardless of the words used. This smacks of the Victorian era, and I’m not sure who is obliged to accept it.

There are two issues here, and neither of them is Victorian.

The first is that it is always inappropriate to call attention to another person’s body characteristics in any situation in which it’s not directly relevant, such as, you are having sex with him or her, or you are a doctor examining him or her, or something like that. It is rude to judge people on their appearance—good or bad—out of the blue. But especially so in a professional situation.

The second is that part of the arsenal of discrimination about women is to reduce them to their appearance, body characteristics, and sexual desirability. It operates to rob them of an equal place in society, at work, and in politics. So, it should be clear to you that a woman’s sexual desirability is not an appropriate thing to comment on out of the blue.

Reducing a women to her desirability makes it difficult for her to freely operate in any arena that is not directly related to sexual desire, like the office, or politics, etc.

This is the opposite of Victorianism, which freely used judgments about women’s sexuality to restrict their options.

[actualliberalnotoneofthose]

I don’t know any women I talk to in real life who would be offended by a guy saying any combination of “hot” and “chick.” If anything they are usually the ones pushing and rewarding the misogynistic talk. As always, YMMV and your relationship to another human being is a big factor. I can say I don’t know anyone who would prefer to never have her looks commented on. If anything THAT would be depressing and offensive. I think it goes without saying to treat people with respect and not reduce women to objects.