I gave his returner stats, and he is a damn good returner. He is also a good receiver, which increases his value. We are not talking about whether he’s a good player and great returner. We’re talking about Dio saying: “Percy Harvin, who is already as dangerous a playmaker and YAC monster as there is among NFL receivers.” I pointed out, using Harvins’ stats (including the questionable “YAC monster” moniker), that he is not near the elite of the NFL as Dio seems to think he is.
Is it so difficult for people to read what I actually write and stop building strawmen to beat up?
Oh for fucks sake, is this inability to comprehend even the simplest of points goddamn inherent in being a Viking fan?
For the third time, here is what Dio said: "“Percy Harvin, who is already as dangerous a playmaker and YAC monster as there is among NFL receivers.” And my points were dealing with Percy as a receiver, hence the part of where I said: “I can think of at least 20 to 30 other receivers I’d rather have on my team than him. That kinda defeats the idea he’s elite.” See those words? I can spell the important one, and go very slowly for you, if you like:
R
E
C
E
I
V
E
R
Have you gotten that yet? Has what I’m talking about sunk in yet? Are we making any progress?
If it has, then answer this simple question: At what position is Percy Harvin in the Pro Bowl for?
I can wait.
Here’s a hint. It ain’t as a receiver.
Good. Got it? Percy Harvin is a very good kick returner. You know what, you can even call him an elite kick returner if you really want to. Go for it.
But that’s does not make him among the most dangerous receiver (or even in the top 20) in the NFL. Just like Devin Hester, Courtney Roby, Danny Amendola, Sammy Stroughter, or Johnny Knox don’t belong there either, despite their fine return skills.
You know, I said it already once, so here you go again:
Oh for fucks sake, is this inability to comprehend even the simplest of points goddamn inherent in being a Viking fan?
For the third time, here is what Dio said: "“Percy Harvin, who is already as dangerous a playmaker and YAC monster as there is among NFL receivers.” And my points were dealing with Percy as a receiver, hence the part of where I said: “I can think of at least 20 to 30 other receivers I’d rather have on my team than him. That kinda defeats the idea he’s elite.” See those words? I can spell the important one, and go very slowly for you, if you like:
R
E
C
E
I
V
E
R
Have you gotten that yet? Has what I’m talking about sunk in yet? Are we making any progress?
If it has, then answer this simple question: At what position is Percy Harvin in the Pro Bowl for?
I can wait.
Here’s a hint. It ain’t as a receiver.
Good. Got it? Percy Harvin is a very good kick returner. You know what, you can even call him an elite kick returner if you really want to. Go for it.
But that’s does not make him among the most dangerous receiver (or even in the top 20) in the NFL. Just like Devin Hester, Courtney Roby, Danny Amendola, Sammy Stroughter, or Johnny Knox don’t belong there either, despite their fine return skills.
All Pro Bowl Kick Returners. Not a one of them ever even sniffed being considered an elite NFL receiver.
And, because I know comprehension isn’t a strong suit of yours, this is not to say that Percy Harvin isn’t talented, he certainly is. But he is not, at this time, an elite receiver in the NFL. And the statistics bears that out. Which, as we all know, doesn’t really matter.
But those same skills aren’t what make for a good receiver. The ability to be good at returning is almost completely unrelated to the ability to be good at receiving. I’m not sure you have any idea of what it takes to be a good receiver. Almost none of it translates to kick returning.
Which makes intuitive sense, but, yet, it doesn’t always translate to reality.
Devin Hester’s an example of this, though he might be a strawman, because he was never a wide receiver until he came to the NFL. His first two years in the league, he was an amazing kick returner, looking like he could be an all-time great at it.
The Bears swore that they wanted to get the ball into his hands more, since he had those amazing skills. So, they transformed him into a wide receiver. He’s shown some flashes, but he’s not been a consistent producer at the position (and, arguably, he wasn’t even the Bears’ best WR by the end of this season, with what Aromashadu was doing). What’s more, the focus on being a WR took him away from what he was outstanding at: returning kicks.
Translates to reality perfectly. Hester has two of four things that wideouts need, and those two of the four things that make good kick returners. Jules said “almost none of [wide receiving skills] translate to kick returning”.
Hester’s problem is that he can’t do the other two things at all - he’s got poor vertical leaping ability and poor route running skills. That’s as you’d expect - after all, even in college he was a #4 corner and very occasional tailback. Hester is very dangerous in situations that don’t require leaping and route running, though - he’s productive on screens and go routes.
Harvin has better leaping ability. I’m not sure about his route-running.
It also seems (intuitively) like route-running should be something a player can learn, in the way that speed and leaping ability aren’t. Is that a sound intuition, or is it like plate discipline in baseball, where theoretically a player could learn to take a walk but most free swingers never do.
However, the impression I’ve always gotten from interviews and watching games is that route running is a combination of coachable/learnable factors and innate ones.
The first thing is discipline - players tend to round off what should be sharp cuts when they’re tired, or don’t think the ball will come their way. That’s learnable. Of course, some players can make sharper cuts than others because they have superior lower body strength or aren’t carrying as much weight or whatever; that’s innate. Field vision and timing - both innate and learnable - determine how accurately a guy makes his break - if you’re on the 20, running a 10-yard out is easy, because you go to the 30 yard line and make your cut. If you’re on the 23, it’s not so easy, since you won’t be able to use the hash marks as a guide unless you’re in the slot. Cutting off your route a foot too early or too late can make the difference between a catch and a pick.
One factor you’ve ignored is intelligence. Fast dumbasses with great leaping abilities may not make for very good wide receivers. I’m not applying this to Harvin or Hester, just wanted to bring it up as another part of the equation.