She says "tomAYto," I say "tomAHto": relationship advice/comments needed![a bit long]

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

Oh… and before everyone goes pounding on the Material Girlfriend too hard, while I’m sure the OP is wonderful, sensitive, caring person, a highly educated man making 20K in his mid thirties, whose primary job goals are centered on relatively hard to get academic and administrative postions, is not going to be many women’s cup of lifestyle tea by the time they are in their mid late 30’s, especially if kids are present or even remotely desired.

It’s a lot better for her to be up front with her lifestyle expectatons instead of playing the game a number of women do, where they choose a laid back, emotionally nurturing hubby, and are disappointed and angry to discover after marriage that hubby’s preferred level of ambition is not going to provide them with the lifestyle their peers and relatives have.

At least Material GF is giving a heads up and laying it on the line.

22

You have been living together for three years and she does not readily help pay the rent? What does she do with “her” money? Does she contribute to the household at all? Does she buy the groceries, pay the utilities, anything?
I am afraid you have already recieved your answer in all the previous posts. Read them all again, especially your own, but this time read them without letting love color your feelings. If you give in to her, your resentment will build and build until one day you will wake up, look around your fabulous house and look at your fabulous cars, and find that you absolutely hate her ever-loving guts. She will become your scapegoat for everything you will have endured for the sake of money. You may have a very well paying job, but your soul will be absolutely miserable.

It is time to move on, my friend.

23

She still doesn’t seem to appreciate your career goals, and it still sounds like she’s more concerned with that than her emotional connection to you. I’m not sure how she could expect you to get a higher paying full time job and complete grad school, so far in my experience grad school itself is a full time job. It’s remarkable to me that you managed to do both at once already.

Bottom line, if she doesn’t care about your happiness with your job, then she doesn’t have the regard for your happiness that you deserve out of a relationship. My advice would still be to find someone who does. If any woman told me i had to choose a different career because my choice wouldn’t make enough for her to live the way she wants to, then i’d tell her that she’d be better off choosing a different man.

upon preview:
It sounds like she wants to marry an international superstar, not a paltry teacher. Tell her to go find one. You should never be ashamed of wanting to teach college students. If all of my professors had been ashamed of teaching me, I wouldn’t be where i am today.

24

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Well as a woman who is approaching her 30s, I can say that a guy like the OP would definetly be my “cup of lifestyle tea!” A smart academic guy passionate about his work!? This would be my ideal type of guy!

astro, your attitude is wrong… you are perpetuating the stereotype that all women want is a guy with money to support them while they sit at home and spit out kids. I am offended!

Material Girlfriend has a master’s degree, she can go out and make her own damn money. Any woman would be lucky to have a guy like the OP!

25

Blackdragon, I think your opinion is extremely useful. I’m going to think that over for a while, and adapt it for my own use in relationships.

The good news for the OP is that the GF is being honest and communicative. She’s making it clear that she expects and values a certain lifestyle that the OP neither can afford nor aspires to. The bad news is that this relationship’s days are numbered, as noted by the other posters.

26

You share a house and you pay the rent. Why?

27

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying at all – he’s saying that although some women are looking for someone like the OP – perhaps even “most” women, here at the SDMB – that not all women are, and that that’s just the way it is.

And it is, in fact, the case that there are women on this planet as we now speak who value a mate primarily in terms of what he can provide for her in terms of material stuff. Just because neither you nor I are looking for that, nyctea, it doesn’t mean that these women don’t exist.

28

Damn, too many replies to keep up with! I didn’t expect such a response.

I think my OP made her sound more dependent than she really is. She’s actually very capable of paying for her own things, and she’s bought a lot of pricey things (including the BMW that she drives) entirely on her own.

Again, her argument was motivated more by her desire to see me doing well and successful. And she feels that my lack of interest in material things (whether it be cars, clothes, new-fangled appliances, whatever) is a lack of respect for her, because she prizes these things so much. That’s how she thinks.

Kiki, I don’t think she would go back to her ex. She had some of the same issues with him (e.g., he wasn’t taking care of the house, left drinks without coasters on antique furniture) that she considered disrespectful. And I’m positive she’s not banging him on the side.

astro, your analysis makes a lot of sense. I was the one who provided her the emotional nourishment at a time when she was feeling especially vulnerable. I think she would prefer a guy that combines the two types, even though I can’t change myself so fundamentally. But I’m not convinced it’s over yet–we’ve had too many good things together. I think she still prefers the emotional nurturer over the material success. The money/career issue does, unfortunately, come up every now and again, and I still hope she’ll come to accept that my academic interests are ambitious in a way–even though they don’t seem much related to the real world.

twickster, the thing about our priorities is I don’t see them as completely opposite all the time. We both love antique furniture, for instance. I just wish there were some way to reconcile them when they conflict–those times when I want to discuss the news or philosophy, but she wants to talk about buying a flat-screen TV.

theckhd, I’ve put forth the same argument–that a better-paying job that I’m miserable at would only be detrimental to our relationship. I’ve also worried about us working in the same locale, though that’s not nearly been as much a source of stress as my lack of interest in non-academic positions. [good luck, btw, to you and your SO in your careers]

Blackdragon, I agree that her references to her ex are very manipulative. I think she’s always expected me to come to share her interests from the very beginning of our relationship, and now that it’s 6 years down the road, she’s losing patience.

nyctea scandiaca, she just came back from an internship in London, where she’s spent most of this past year. She’s worked before that, and she intends to go back to work. As for the rent, she makes contributions in other ways–she’s probably bought most of the furniture, and continues to improve the house.

Snooooopy, yours was the first post to make me smile, although in a bitter kind of way.

29

I’m not convinced the girlfriend is actually a bitch.

Some people place a whole lot of value on cars, houses, clothes, etc. Sure, I think it’s stupid and probably so do you. But if someone is willing to work hard to, say, buy a BMW, I’ve got no problem with that. People like that would probably think it’s stupid that I’m willing to drive an old ugly minivan because I want to keep my expenses to a minimum so I never have to put my kid in daycare shrug Different strokes.

Is she working, though? Gone are the days when women can expect their men to take care of them, and it is both genders’ fault. Men don’t seem to be as interested in being “the provider” as they seemed to be, say, 50 years ago: society has made it a lot easier for men to, well, be selfish. On the flip side, women have demanded career opportunities and now that they have them, they’re suddenly pissed that they are (generally) expected to work full-time and chip in financially, and they can’t have it both ways.

Add those attitudes to extremely high taxes and you almost have to have a 2 income household: if not to MAKE it financially, to keep the peace.

The point I’m trying to make is if this girlfriend of yours is willing to work, too, I don’t think it’s fair to consider her unreasonable that she wants the “finer” things in life, however meaningless they may be. However, she knew going into this relationship that you wanted to be a professor. To demand that you change your goals THIS late in the game is just wrong, and it really does sound like she’s looking for an out.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask one’s spouse to try to find a better paying job, if doing so wouldn’t cause your spouse to be unhappy and if you’re doing all YOU can do to raise your standard of living. However, you two aren’t married and it doesn’t sound like you should be.

30

A question, here, Skopo.
Have you discussed what your future immediate and long-term budgeting strategies are going to be? Have you both sat down and run numbers to see what you’ll need to pay off the bills and how that tallies with what you’re anticipating being able to bring in? Have you allowed for some error, so that screwups can be accommodated for, cars that suddenly don’t work can be fixed, and bills that you weren’t expecting can be paid? Have you allowed for the “extras” that most people forget about, such as what you spend on groceries every week, how much toothpaste you go through, and what TP is going to cost you every month? If you haven’t I suggest you do so. SOON.
This would help to reassure her that you ARE indeed concerned with your financial future. Because, quite frankly, while it could be that she’s a money-grubbing superficial shallow person, it also could be that she’s got real concerns about the financial future of your relationship. She could be looking at the present reality, and then going with it into the future. And quite frankly if you’re not really sure about your financial future and you haven’t run hard numbers, then she’s not out of line in fearing that you’ll just rot in some low-paying position, or that you’re lackadaisically assuming it will all “work out in the end”.
While $35,000 per year sounds great, especially for a starting salary, how much of that will be sucked up just into paying rent and loans off? If your take-home is, say, $1600 per month, but $1300 of it is going to pay off rent and loans, that’s only $300 for EVERYTHING for the rest of the month. Groceries, utilities, gas, clothes, whatever. And Og forbid that the car break down - you wouldn’t have the money to get it fixed.
I mean, really, I’d be kind of afraid, too, if I had to help pay off the rent BEFORE the extra loan bills came in. I’d probably be thinking along the same lines, “Man, he can’t afford the rent payment NOW, what’s it gonna be like in a year when we’ve got those loans coming due? I’ve gotta have an escape plan; I can’t afford to get socked with HIS outstanding loans just because he isn’t making any real plans on how to pay them off.”
It may be, too, that after running some budget numbers, YOU might be in for a rather unpleasant surprise. Those loans can take up more of your paycheck than you originally thought, or they can take longer to pay off than you originally thought.
So, while her concerns may be rather shallowly expressed, I think she’s got a valid point here - one which YOU need to work out with her by projecting a real budget. Get her input for it too, both on the things you’ll NEED to pay for each month and the things you both will WANT to have or pay for each month. Make her a part of it; don’t just shove numbers into her face and say, “SEE? Told ya.” You can’t do this as a her / you adversarial process. It’s got to be a cooperative effort, especially since she cares enough about this to threaten to leave over it.
We’re only getting your side of this, so obviously we don’t have her mindset or know what she’s thinking. That’s YOUR job.

31

Actually, I don’t think she is. What I get is that she intends to leave, because she wants her rich ex or someone like him, but she wants to put the blame on the OP. *“Well, I had no choice but to leave, because you’re such an unambitious slug.” * She’s leaving eventually no matter what the OP does, IMHO. Even if he does jump through her materialistic hoops, he’ll likely find himself not only without her, but in a place career-wise that he doesn’t want to be. As far as I’m concerned, “My ex does _____ better than you” would be grounds for ending it right there.

Ayup.

32

It’s not a stereotype, it’s a practical reality for many women, and if anything illustrates the hard choices and complex variables women have to sort through in making choices about mates and partners. After the flush of love and attraction hormones pass, women are just as interested as men in achieving a level of material success that allows them to live and exist in a reasonably comfortable and secure manner for themselves and their children.

This is not because they are lazy and greedy and want to eat bon bons all day, but rather that intelligent women are making highly logical, real world calculations about relative potential income levels and the level of overall income support required by the family as a unit, and beyond that, the levels of support required if they have children which typically decreases her income and increases overall expenses substantially.

In these scenarios it’s women that are making the hard choices about where they are really honestly comfortable being on a lifestyle scale relative to mate choice, and an intellectually honest women in this scenario is vastly preferable to one that wait’s until after marriage and kids to have a wake up call on these issues.

33

Relationships between someone who is materialistic and someone who is not can, indeed, work. But there do need to be limitations set right away. Materialistic GF needs to learn that if she “needs” these expensive items, she’s going to have to foot the bill herself. My husband is pretty materialistic, and I’m not. He’s always “needing” a new car, boat, hot tub, gun, or whatever trips his trigger (no pun intended) at the moment. And I don’t give a crap, because I’m not paying for it. We have separate checking accounts, and split our bills pretty much down the middle. As long as he’s paying his half, I don’t give two hoots what he does with the rest of his money. And, if he adds a payment for something he “needs,” he pays for it himself. Recently he decided that he wanted to go back to school, and was talking pretty seriously about it. I was totally excited for him, and encouraged him to do it if he thought it would result in a more satisfying career for him. We began to talk about what we’d have to do to make it work, i.e. what we’d have to give up. Once he realized that we’d have to sell our house, live in an apartment for a couple of years, sell one of our cars, etc., he suddenly decided that “he didn’t want to do it that badly.” Hasn’t mentioned it since. In other words, he’d rather make more money for the time being than sacrifice for a couple of years to have a more rewarding career for himself. Sounds kind of like your girlfriend wanting you to do something you don’t necessarily like all that well just to make more money, doesn’t it? What I can’t understand is why she’s bringing all this up now. As if she’s just realizing that this is the way life’s going to be with you? She’s going to have to respect your choice of career for your relationship to work. If she wants more money, she can make it on her own.

34

Thanks for all of your replies. I will go through them again, as you suggest Lyllyan.

DogMom, you raise many excellent points. I think you’ve shown her side of the issue far better I have in this thread (or how she did last night). I intend to follow your advice with the budget-planning, something which I need to discipline myself into doing more often. And it won’t be a game of one-upmanship–I think she really would appreciate me gaining a realistic perspective on financial costs in our future.

I appreciate everyone’s advice and even the predictions. But this relationship is not over, at least not yet. I still love her, and although I know she’s frustrated with me, I know she still loves me. We’ve been together for six years now, and I think this relationship has some strong health in it that needs tending to. I intend to provide that, and I hope that she will too.

If she demonstrates a lack of interest in working through this, then I’ll accept that as a sign that it’s over. But I’m not expecting that to happen–not yet, and hopefully never.

35

There’s a stereotypical line about marriage: Women marry men thinking the men will change, and men marry women thinking the women won’t change. Both are disappointed.

I seriously doubt this relationship can be saved without a major personality change by one of you.

36

Huh. Okay. It sounds like she would be happy if you were a SUPERSTAR professor. But does she have any realistic idea of how this happens to most people? Granted, there is more than one path – you could write a hugely successful book early on in your career, which I think is a nice goal no matter what your aspirations although I personally would not put all my eggs in this basket. Or you could be a member of the Kennedy family (probably a bit late to start on this now if you’re not already :slight_smile: ). Or, like most scholars who are appointed to Presidential panels or United Nations commissions, you could spend a few years plugging along toward tenure, teaching and doing research at a reputable institution, which sounds more or less like the plan you’re currently on.

Relatively speaking, PhDs are a dime a dozen (which in no way takes away from your accomplishments in earning one, congrats btw). “Knowing the right people” might get you a gig here or there, but it’s not going to turn you into Harold Bloom or Skip Gates or Ron Dworkin or any of the other major leaguers who command the kind of money that your girlfriend seems to have her eye on.

37

The road to tenure is a long haul with no guarantees. You have to go where the jobs are and be willing to work hard for quite a lot less than you could make elsewhere, for years. If she’s already getting impatient, it doesn’t bode well.

38

If I were in your situation and my husband asked me to buy him a new car and he didnt have a job… I would say 'babycakes, get off yor ass and go get a job if you want a new car"

Personally If I were you I would tell her if material goods are so darn important to her, then she should be looking for work to suppliment her lifestyle requirements. I can be a very straightforward person
Her saying to you that ‘because you do not value material things the way she does is disrespectful’ is a bunch of crap. I say she is an immature woman [not necessarily a bitch] who wants everything handed to her. She is just spoiled from having had a wealthy lifestyle. But, now she need to grow up or move on. Life is not fair… BooHoo

Sorry If I come off as rude… I just have no sympathy for people who want everything handed to them on a silver platter as well as expect everyone in their life to have the same expectation out of life as they do. Sure, she would like you to be successful, but getting on a tenure track is successful in your chosen line of work. I think it is great the you want to work in academia, but everyone knows that academia doesn’t pay a 6 figure salary. If is did more people would do it. People do it because they love what they do! As others have said, do not give up what you want to do for money. Money cannot and never will buy happiness. If she cannot see that this is what makes you happy, then you are probably better off without her :frowning:

39

Skopo, what has shone through in your posts to this thread is the level of understanding and compassion you have for your girlfriend. I commend you for those qualities, as well as for the strength of your convictions when it comes to what kind of career will make you happy. The fact that those outstanding achievements are now placed in conflict makes your situation particularly poignant.

I find myself, almost alone amongst the female contributors to this thread, in close agreement with Astro, who has pointed out the heartrending calculations faced by women who want to raise children and spend significant portions of their productive years not earning income. I would add here that I feel for men in today’s society as well, who may be faced with an equally heartrending choice between hardwon financial success at the cost of their personal relationships or happiness in a career that is poorly remunerated, costing them the ability to support a family in the manner that they would wish. I think it is easy to read your representations of your girlfriend’s concerns as preoccupations with material things, and on some level I think that interpretation is accurate. But the question – “What do material things represent to her?” – is a potentially fruitful one.

You have hinted at the answer in some of your posts. To her, they seem represent security, success, and status. I think an earlier poster’s suggestion that you sit down with your girlfriend and look at what your budgeting expectations can realistically be over the next 3-5 years is an excellent one. Perhaps you will find that security, at least, is covered. Status and success are thornier issues. I am much more of your point of view (Success = career satisfaction) than of your girlfriend’s apparent one (Success = stuff and the ability to buy it).

But I’d still suggest that you at least consider the possibility that a better-paying job might lead to career satisfaction. Explore what those jobs are and might be. Talk to her about them. If you find that they will be seriously deficient from your point of you, explain to her why you find that to be the case. I suggest this because you seem to value your relationship with this woman so highly, and it may be easier for you to adjust your sights than it is for her to adjust her priorities.

If you find that the academic career you have set your heart on is the only one that offers a real prospect of happiness for you, then you must start helping her on the road to redefining success if you want to maintain your relationship. I’m not sure what practical advice to give here, but it’s possible that couple’s counseling might help you each (although she seems to be more in need of it than you are) to see the other’s point of view.

I do, wholeheartedly, wish you every happiness.

40

With regards to the “cultural differences” issue, that is a crock. I have a lot of family in Brazil, my parents live there currently, and I’ve spent a good deal of time there. I’ve met Brazilians who are incredibly materialistic, and I’ve met those whom aren’t the least bit interested in material goods. You can’t really assign the blame for her materialistic outlook on her being Brazilian.

I agree that it is a good idea for you to sit down and figure out what kind of salry you need for a comfortable lifestyle, but from what you’ve told us, it seems that you and gf have vastly different requirements regarding what you want out of a career and a lifestyle.

You have to ask yourself if you would be happy having the kind of job that her lifestyle choice would require. If the answer is no, and she is unwilling to lead the kind of lifestyle that you want to lead, than you may find a break-up to be inevitable.