She says "tomAYto," I say "tomAHto": relationship advice/comments needed![a bit long]

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

My husband and I have learned that the most important thing that we give to each other is encouragement to do the things that will make ourselves happy. I do not depend on him to make me happy. I know what things will bring me pleasure and he encourages me in those pursuits. I do the same for him.

He puts far less emphasis on material things than I do. He rarely buys anything for himself. I’ve run out of space to put new “things,” but he learned to accept most of my compulsive need for ownership as long as I paid for these things. That was only fair. Now I’m beginning to work past the need to buy.

What we have that is absolutely irreplaceable is mutual respect for the needs and desires of the other.

What is it that makes a person desire designer clothes, a first-rate car, a big house in an exclusive neighborhood and fame? Usually when someone has those things, they just want still more…and more. They never have enough.

What they are really looking for is to feel good about themselves. And that’s not for sale.

The irony is that you already seem to know what will make you feel good about yourself. And she wants you to give it up.

I believe you when you say that you love her and that she loves you. It’s good that she is honest with you. Be as honest with yourself and with her. Respect yourself.

It’s good that you don’t have to make a decision or change right away. There are things that you really need to find out about yourself and about her first.

“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” – Emerson

42

I have two different opinions.

Here’s what the Brain says:

You two should try and talk it out. However, I’m firmly of the opinion that if you want stuff, you can get off your butt to earn it. If I want a new car…no, when I wanted a new car…I slashed expenses and saved my pennies. And yea, maybe you should look into a higher paying job, but you should never, ever take a job because it’s what someone else wants you to do. That way lies madness (and here I’m thinking of all the people I knew in Pre-Med programs who were just doing it cause their parents wanted them too). And what if you DO rearrange your life and ambitions and then she dumps you for someone with a higher salary? Never do something as majorly important as completely realigning your career goals for a woman, especially one where your relationship is “hanging by a thread.” Because she may ditch you tomorrow, and do you really want to be stuck in a field because that’s what your ex-girlfriend wanted?

Here’s what the Man-Brain (My Penis) says:

Ditch the bitch. She’s only going to get worst. Her diva-esque expectations will never be satisfied. If you buy her a car, she’ll want a house. If you buy her a house, she’ll want a helipad. If you buy her a helipad, she’ll want a Learjet. Here is a fundamental problem and I don’t think it can be changed. Money will constantly be an issue and if she thinks buying stuff means you love her, she’ll ALWAYS think that. You’ll be one of those guys working to pay off your woman’s BMW while she cruises around doing nothing. You’ll spend the rest of your days toiling to buy her toys, cause you think it’ll be just one more thing, but it’ll be more. It’ll be like Pac-man, gobble up all the dots and it’ll just be a whole new board. If she wants a nice car, she can buy it herself.

43

I am pretty sure that she is paying for her own car (the BMW). Look upthread. I think that she must have such a high opinion of her SO (a good thing!) that she’d rather see him do something in the “real world” that he can be paid for rather than begging for grants.
Before I get flamed–I chose to use the term the “real world” because the OP used it in this discussion.

44

Everyone reading this thread needs to go out and read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. Not only will you understand yourself (in relationships) better, you’ll understand those you love.

The gist of the book is everyone has a way they give love and receive love. The five love languages are:

Quality Time: You want to spend lots of time with family and friends and if you don’t, you begin to feel neglected.

Gifts: This one is self-explanatory. People whose love language is gifts take great joy in buying presents for others, and giving them a gift shouts “I love you” to them. Someone with this gift usually takes good care of the presents they’ve been given and remembers who gave them what for years to come.

Words of Affirmation: People with this one need to be told how much they’re loved, how great they are, how good they look in that new dress, etc. Turn off the compliments and it hurts them.

Acts of Service: Don’t TELL me that you love me. Show me. By washing the dishes, walking the dog, changing the oil in my car, cooking me dinner, etc.

Physical Touch: This one’s a given. It doesn’t necessarily have to be sex but that’s part of it. People with this one like lots of hugs, kisses, laying on the bed cuddling, wrestling, etc.

My point is:

Money will constantly be an issue and if she thinks buying stuff means you love her, she’ll ALWAYS think that.

If she does think buying stuff means her man loves her, that’s no more her fault than if some people don’t feel loved unless they get about 45 minutes of undivided attention/conversation from their SO every day.

45

Well, I’m like your girlfriend and my boyfriend is like you. I’ve long since accepted this, and it really doesn’t matter. When it comes time to buy a car, or clothes, or to visit the salon, I’m gonna be spending my money, not his money or our money. If I don’t make enough money to buy something, I won’t buy it.

I do expect him to provide for me in some respects, but stuff like that’s not it.

46

I completely believe that you love each other, but sometimes love just ain’t enough. It’s a cliche, but it’s true. Love doesn’t do you a damn bit of good if you don’t also have respect for one another, compatible priorities and goals, communication, and a willingness to constantly compromise on a variety of subjects.

Judging by your posts, your girlfriend doesn’t have much respect for your desires and ambitions, and she feels that because you don’t share her desires and ambitions, you don’t respect them or her. Your life goals, as you’ve admitted yourself, are imcompatible. She’s decided she’s already done all the compromising she intends to do here.

Do you really need me to tell you where this is going?

You guys are going to need counseling, and a hell of a lot of it, if you have any hope at all of making this work long-term. Specifically, she’s going to need some help figuring out that it’s quite possible to respect someone’s feelings without sharing them, and that you can’t just up and say “well, I’ve done all my compromising for the relationship, so it’s all on you now.”

There’s a huge wage gap in my marriage that’s only going to widen over the years. Yeah, there are probably a dozen things I could do that would pay better than being a vet tech, and most of those jobs would be a lot more glamorous and prestigious. But you know what? Dr.J would never even dream of telling me I could do better, or make more money, or could be more than just a tech. It would never even cross his mind to say something so hurtful and belittling to me, to imply that something I love is somehow substandard. He loves me too much and has too much respect for me and for the way I feel about my job to do that. He doesn’t share my passion for animals, but he respects it.

And he’s willing to compromise about it. He very much feels that pets shouldn’t outnumber humans in a household. He’s adamant about it, in fact. Still, when I said I was taking Dolly (critter #3) to work to get a bath and to meet a dog, he just asked if our new dog was at least quiet. I’ve had to make a lot of compromises related to his education and his job, and there’s a lot more to be made in the future. It’s just an ongoing part of being with him, just like the animals are an ongoing part of being with me.

You simply can’t underestimate the importance of respect and compromise in a relationship. A fair number of people have perfectly happy marriages that have respect and compromise, but not love, but I don’t know of anyone who has love but not the other two and is happy.

47

Ouch. Since she says things like this, I figure that your girlfriend is either (1) completely, cluelessly tactless or (2) practicing her extortion skills. I suspect that it’s the latter, not the former.

When she says things like those quoted, it’s apparently your cue to rush in & say, “Oh no, honey - I’m just as good as he is; I’m better, in fact! I’ll prove it to you by doing (whatever her vision of what your career path/goals/salary should be)!”.

She’s pitting you against the spectre of her ex-husband and/or other suitors who have similar goals/statuses in an effort to force you into following her ‘suggestions’; if you see what you’re theoretically up against, you’ll cave to her demands rather than lose her as a partner.

This tactic is, IMO, just as much of a problem as is the fact that y’all seem to have very different attitudes towards material possessions & social status. Saying things like,

‘It sure would be nice to get a brand-new BMW, honey, but I know you can’t afford it on your salary. Y’know, my ex could buy me a new BMW… wistful sigh I wonder where I’d be right now if I’d stayed…’

is, to put it plainly, rather cruel (not to mention that the tactic underestimates you). I’d rather not deal with it, but YMMV.

48

Skopo,
Another art history PhD-student bum here (hey, brother! Northern Renaissance here. Represent, ya’ll).
Do what I did and find something like a BICYCLE MECHANIC to settle down with.
He understands why I want to go into academia and has about the same kind of ambition as I do (modest)-- we have very modest intentions for the future, cash-wise, and think we can be perfectly happy making less than boatloads. He’s been able to drop his jobs and follow me to new schools/ countries without too much complaining, and we understand that when I finally finish up and get my fabulous tenure-track job at a cute little 4 year college with clever students and a lovely office and I cross-country-ski to work from our cute A-frame on the river with the nice mossy yard, he can hang around the house raising the kids and making custom-built bike frames, or run a shop or whatever. I’ve chosen this field and career not for the cash but for a certain life style, and I can appreciate the years he’s wasted in a labor-of-love career path as well. It’s nice to have similar visions of the future. We have our 5-year wedding anniversary next month.
It sounds like your girl does have something that you love; you just need to decide how much of your vision of the rest of your life you are willing to adjust for her vision of the rest of her life-- does her’s fit in with your’s at all or do you have to sacrifice everything you’ve wanted to have in YOUR LIFE to keep her in the picture? Vice versa, how much is she willing to adjust her vision? Could she live with, like, a Volvo?
(I’m actually kind of laughing for you-- I just kind of think it’s funny. . after a rich doctor she got involved with an ART HISTORIAN and is even considering money as. . . ah, it’s just too good. Sheesh, you’re still working on the diss, even. A high-paying job? Heh)

49

Glad to be of help, and I’m glad you’re going to try to do the budget thing. It’s a real Pain In The Butt to do, I’ll agree, but it’s definitely worth it in the long run.
I’m still thinking…HOPING that she’s just trying to express concerns about long-term budgeting. Granted, if that’s the case, then she’s expressing it VERY badly, and VERY tactlessly, but it may be that’s the only way she knows HOW to express it.
Considering that budgeting, money, and How To Spend It is a major source of contention between couples, it’s not surprising that you both might have differing ideas on how the money is spent.

And that’s really what you need - you both need to be willing to do the “hard stuff” of making a relationship, and it sounds like you very much love her and are willing to DO the hard stuff, like budgeting.
Here’s hoping that you both come out of this stronger, more committed, and with a better handle on what each of you has set for priorities.
This is also a big part of budget-making, by the way. Not only do you really need to figure out what NEEDS to be paid, but in what order, what your long-term goals are, stuff you’d like to have / buy / rent / do, and so on. It’s not always fun, it IS always work, but it’s also WELL worth the effort.
Good luck to the both of you.

50

First off, let me give a shout out to capybara. Nineteenth-Century European (specializing in Late Victorian/Aesthetic Movement), here! Your vision of your future is pretty much like mine (though without the skis). And it sometimes amuses me, too, that she left a lawyer to be with an art historian (I hadn’t even taken my prelims when we met–I was just a PhD student. And apparently I still look young enough to confuse my undergrad students when I walk into class on the first day). Love makes people do crazy things. [btw, I love Belgium–especially Brugge. While I like Belgium’s Art Nouveau stuff more than my GF does, one of the things that she and I definitely share is a love for Jan Van Eyck–I’m very jealous that you’re residing in the same city as the Ghent Altarpiece!]

Anyway, my GF and I have talked a little more, and what I want to do now is to keep our communication lines open. One of the things that we both have to realize is that she is hyper-aware of material things (and when there’s something wrong with them, e.g. dust covering the china cabinet, etc.), whereas I fall into the “absent-minded professor” stereotype a little too easily. While we both can shift our perspectives a bit, we can’t completely adopt the other person’s point of view. Hence the need for communication, in which we make each other aware of our interests and concerns.

Abbie Carmichael, thank you for your summary of Chapman’s love languages. I think my GF speaks the “Acts of Service” language first of all–not the “Gifts” language as one might expect. Although she really appreciates nice gifts (and I often speak the “Gifts” language myself), what she really likes is for her guy to take care of things–from taking out the garbage and washing the car to doing research into what’s the best kind of broadband service for our home computer. I think she’s more interested in the process of obtaining material objects than the objects themselves–she sees them as complementing a bigger idea that she has of a “nice comfortable home environment.”

Counseling, as several of you suggest, may not be a bad idea. When we talk by ourselves, I find myself getting on the defensive side (which, perhaps, is inevitable when she brings up references to her past lifestyle and her ex and so forth), and I find myself trying to make excuses for things I know I’m at least partly responsible for (e.g., why I haven’t taken the time to vacuum the house and other typical household chores). A third-party moderator may help us get beyond our own perspectives a bit and appreciate where each other is coming from (not that the Straight Dope is a substitute for a licensed counselor, but I must say that this thread has helped me see this issue from many different sides and to re-examine what it is that I cherish in this relationship).

Zoe and Mercury, thank you for expressing a perspective similar to my GF’s, and how your perspective could be reconciled with your respective SOs. I also greatly appreciate Aholibah’s interpretation of what the material issues signify for my GF, and how I might meet her expectations without compromising my career values.

And GMRyujin, I have to ignore my, er, “Man-Brain” because his advice is not the most objective. He definitely enjoys staying with this particular woman and doesn’t give a damn about my career goals! That’s why I’m trying to keep him out of this discussion altogether.

51

Good idea on not consulting your Man-Brain. He rarely will give advice that does not benefit him directly and immediately. Mine talked me into my first marriage.

Anyhow, I want to remind you of a few things you said. I am trying to as non-judgmental as possible, and relate them to what I’ve experienced.

When ultimatums are made, then someone’s already made their mind up.

When my ex-wife told me flat-out that she wished she weren’t married to me, so would have been free to date some one from school, I knew there was no point in staying together.

What does she contribute to the household? I understand you are both in grad school, but if all the finances fall to you, that is not really fair.

I think it all boils down to the fact that the two of want different things out of life. In order for you to make her happy, you run the risk of being unhappy. Same for her.

At this point, I would recommend couples counseling, but remember, it only works if both of you attend.

52

I do have to say that I think the counseling would be an excellent idea. I’m VERY detail-oriented, like your girlfriend, and I know some “absent-minded professor” type people, and I’ve gotta tell you that the whole “absent-minded” thing drives me absolutely batshit insane. I know that y’all don’t do it on purpose, but my gosh it sure feels like that sometimes. “I forgot, I’m sorry,” is accepted with good grace only so many times before I start thinking, “if you were actually sorry, you’d make more of an effort to remember that for a change.” Or whatever.

The counselor will likely give you assistance not only in communicating where you are coming from, but enable you to listen better to where the other person is coming from and give you ideas on how to “meet in the middle” so to speak. So she might learn how to be a little more relaxed and “absent-minded professorish” about things, and you’ll learn how to be a bit more aware of the things that drive her nuts and better able to prevent them.
Good luck to you both - it sounds like you’ve got a good foundation here, if you’re willing to work at building the future together.

53

Having similar attitudes toward money is probably the most important issue in a marriage. They say couples fight about money more than anything else, including sex. It sounds like you’re resolved to stay in the relationship, which may be the right thing. However, I strongly caution you not to get married until you have worked out a financial situation which you both can live with, happily. Don’t just assume “we’ll work it out, once I get that raise.”

Sometimes love truly isn’t enough. If you marry someone you are fundamentally incompatible with (be it sexually, financially, parentally, etc.), you’re likely to make each other miserable. Be honest with yourself about your compatibility before you get married.

Lastly, I can’t encourage you enough to make finding a job you like/love your number one priority. You don’t want to look back at your life and say “I could have done X, but instead I decided to earn enough for a more expensive car.” It’s not selfish to value your life, and what you choose to do with it.