Duly noted, and you don’t sound picky at all. But in my defense…
From a Jew no less! Color me shocked!
I think all the responses are great, but I felt the need to add my own 2 shekels. This is coming from an almost non-practicing conservative jew (or something approximating that)
First, it is difficult to convert to Judaism. We don’t go out witnessing. We aren’t canvassing the campus of local universities. The only way we get new Jews is when they come to us.
Secondly, when they come to us, they are refused twice. No matter what your reasons are for converting, you WILL be denied twice. You’re not being beaten across the head here, but it’s a way of forcing you to think about why you want to convert. It’s a way of saying “are you sure?” “Are you REALLY sure?” “OK, now begins the process.”
Third, the process. I’m surprised not many before this have suggested it but…why not at least learn about Judaism? Study the history. Study the Torah. Learn what it means to be a Jew. What do the holidays mean, what does the Passover Sedar mean, what does the Holocaust mean? How can you say you don’t want to be a Jew if you have no idea what you’re rejecting?
Fourth, (pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease forgive me for sounding like Dr. Laura here) if and when you do convert, you are taking an oath before all the other Jews and before God. If you are doing it for the wrong reasons, if you’re doing it against your will, you’re lying to everyone else and yourself.
And finally, fifth: your child. Zev brought up a good point in that your child won’t understand why his holidays are being taken away from him. Let me go a bit further than that. Let’s say you don’t convert but you still marry. Your child is now being raised to be a Jew despite not having any interest and no Jewish link with his real parents. All he knows is that his stepdad is Jewish so now he has to be too. His own mom didn’t want to bother converting but now he has to? Can we say resentment?
I wish you well with whichever way you decide to go.
Trying not to interject my personal feelings just yet:
It’s not that I don’t want to be a Jew. It’s that I don’t believe in God. It wouldn’t be any different if my boyfriend were Catholic, or any other god-based religion. From that standpoint, I know exactly what I would be rejecting: a belief in God.
I suppose this begs the question: is a belief in God necessary before attempting conversion? I’ve always been under the impression it is.
Slight clarification:
A conversion for the sake of marrying someone is not supposed to be performed, but if done, is a valid conversion. A conversion in which the convert has not accepted to keep the mitzvos is not a valid conversion even if performed. (This is the cause of the controversies involving Reform and Conservative conversions).
Gundy, after posting my reply, I read through it and realized that there were places that it can be misinterpreted. Indeed, that was the case here. I wasn’t saying that you didn’t want to be a Jew. I don’t know what your feelings are one way or the other. I was merely saying that if you don’t want to convert, but don’t properly understand yet what it is you’re rejecting, then it’s not a fair objection. I’m sorry for the confusion.
Now, as for believing in God…well…that depends. You must attend a few services. You must say some prayers. Those prayers all involve God. If you plan to circumcise a future child, have a Bar Mitzvah with your current one, marry your boyfriend in a Synagogue, that all involves prayers and, by logical extension, God.
Do you need to believe? Not necessarily. Unlike Christianity, you do not need to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. You do not need to believe in the Trinity. You do not, strictly speaking, need to believe in God to be Jewish. It is enough that you are Jewish. Does the same rule apply when you convert? No idea. But I do know that when you convert, you are no longer a convert. You are a Jew.
Well, yeah, the rule “believe in G-d” would apply when you convert. The Sh’ma would be pretty meaningless otherwise, and so would the Torah. If you’re going to commit yourself to follow it, then belief would have to be there…just because one of the mitzvot is belief.
Gundy, I know that your future mother-in-law wants you to convert, but how do you really think she would feel if you said “Future mother-in-law, I don’t personally believe in any of this Judaism stuff. I’m converting, but it’s only to make you happy, and so you won’t nag your son.” I’m sorry if the way I phrased that seems harsh, but that seems to be what you’ve said in the thread. My suggestion would be, don’t convert unless you want to…unless Judaism seems so right to you, you couldn’t think of not being Jewish. Your future mother-in-law can’t decide that for you, and neither can your boyfriend, or anybody else. Good luck in figuring out what you want to do, and I hope whatever you choose makes you happy.
Well, they sure did a lot of canvassing on the campus of my university. Granted, they were trying to get secular Jews to become religious, not trying to convert the Christians–but boy were they persistent! The Chabadniks would stand in the middle of the path across campus and ask everybody if they were Jewish. If the passersby said “yes,” the Chabadniks wouldn’t let them pass until they shook a lulav. It was really very embarrassing.
So, Gundy, if I may be nosy, what happened?
Zev Steinhardt
Personally, I wasn’t going to pry, far be it from me to pry…but since Zev brought it up…
Well, hot damn. Imagine my surprise at this thread’s resurrection!
So far, not much has changed. At least not formally. My son and I did attend seder with my boyfriend’s family on Passover weekend, and were guided through the rites quite nicely. This was a Big Deal for the three of us, because we met new members of his family, this was our (well, my son’s and my) first seder, etc., etc. Everything went swimmingly; my son read the four questions (flawlessly!), we tried gefilte fish for the first time (and I gotta tell you, that was the fishiest fish that ever fished), and my son found a new gustatory delight in matzoh ball soup made by a real Jewish Grandmother. I personally found the entire tradition to be quite lovely - I mean, it really meant something, and throughout the dinner the participants are reminded of what the holiday’s about. So it’s not an empty celebration, do you know what I mean? Something that always bugged me about religious holidays is that they lose their meaning over time. All in all it was a great introduction to Jewish traditions.
My boyfriend and I have had an ongoing discussion about this. The other night he asked hypothetically if I could try to believe in God, etc., for someone I loved. Hypothetical, my sweet hiney. He had been reading the Torah and took note of a passage sternly warning against marriage between Jews and non-Jews. Which became a talk about faith; that is, why I have no problem believing that, say, black holes probably exist but have serious problems believing in God. Basically what it came down to was, I can swallow the probable existence of black holes because the evidence I have knowledge of satisfies my doubts; however, I cannot find evidence that resonates with me that God exists. And to say that I do believe, when in my heart I don’t, would amount to a well-intended lie, and would be disrespectful to boot. He tends toward agnosticism intellectually, but having been raised in a religious manner, I think he finds it easier to believe than I do.
I truly understand his mother’s reservations about me and my son. If I were Jewish or devoutly religious of any stripe, I would probably feel the same way. The whole “I have a right to Jewish grandchildren” thing threw me off and made me defensive, but under the pushiness is genuine concern and probably disappointment. I’ve had to ask myself whether I was being stupidly stubborn, or if this was simply a control issue. I really don’t think it is. I’m keeping my mind open. I would love to have the chance to attend services, though.
The sad part is, I don’t think there can be a compromise here. So we’re still sort of stuck, but we’re talking and working on it. Sorry I couldn’t give a better conclusion.
I can’t believe I missed this thread the first time around. Glad you enjoyed your first seder.
Anyway, these thoughts from from a convert to Judaism:
As others have clearly said, there’s really very little question of you converting simply to make your prospective mother-in-law happy, since no Orthodox or Conservative rabbi would sanction the conversion without being completely convinced of your sincere desire to accept for yourself the obligation to fulfill the commandments, and in Reform circles your children would be considered Jewish so long as you raise them in a Jewish environment (and most Reform rabbis I’ve met would discourage you as well).
The biggest thing that people from a Christian or non-religious background have to get over in dealing with Judaism is that Judaism doesn’t much care what you think or what you believe. You pretty much have to believe in God, but there’s tons of latitude for variation in what that means. What matters, Jewishly speaking, is what you do: specifically, that you follow the commandments. That’s essentially what converting to Judaism means: accepting for oneself the obligation to fulfill the various mitzvot.
(Incidentally, this is another reason rabbis discourage converts – there’s a theological problem in encouraging a non-Jew to take on this obligation, since in Jewish belief non-Jews who fulfill the much shorter list of Noahide commandments – those reflected in the covenant between Noah and God following the flood – are just as righteous, just as deserving of salvation, as the most pious Jew. A convert makes his/her own path to salvation much more arduous by accepting the formidable additional obligations of a Jew.)
What you should do is to continue the process you’ve already started: learn. There’s five thousand years worth of tradition, custom, thought, and belief to catch up on before you begin to know what Judaism is about. Initially, I had no intention of converting. I respected what it means to be Jewish too much to even think of a superficial conversion. It was very important to my fiancee, however, that her children be raised in a Jewish home, educated in Jewish belief and practice, etc. I don’t believe that it’s advisable to throw a lot of different religious belief systems and practices at kids and expect them to sort them out; I believe it’s important for the parents to present a united front where religion is concerned. Therefore, I considered it my responsibility to learn as much as I could about Judaism. I was fortunate enough to be able to take a formal “Introduction to Judaism” course under the auspices of the local rabbinical association. We met for two hours a week for twelve weeks, and read several hundred pages each week. By halfway through the course, I’d begun to realize that the tenets of Judaism were very much in line with my own values. It took me another year of regular study with a rabbi to reach a point where I was comfortable with my decision to convert, and the better part of another year before the rabbi was comfortable with my decision to covert. Along with proposing to my wife, it remains one of the best things I ever did. It might be the worst thing you could possibly do. But the more you know, the better your decision is likely to be. Look around your community for opportunities to learn about Judaism; synagogues, Jewish community centers, etc. often offer courses, seminars, special lectures, and so on.
Regardless of what you think your direction will be, let me recommend that you run, not walk, to your local bookstore to buy or order The Intermarriage Handbook: A Guide for Jews and Christians, by Judy Petsonk and Jim Remsen. Despite the title, the book does an excellent job of describing the likely problems and issues that will arise in any marriage between two people of different cultural backgrounds. It doesn’t attempt to tell you what to do, but it does allow you to see arguments and strife over cultural and religious differences for what they are and helps put them in the proper perspective. There are lots of things about my wife and her family that would make me absolutely nuts if I hadn’t read this book. Those things still frustrate and annoy me, but I’m able to see them for what they are and work through or around them in ways that I wouldn’t have been able to otherwise.
I still haven’t developed a taste for gefilte fish, however.