BTW, I feel much better since I decided to give up on reconciliation with my sister. It’s one less worry. I don’t even feel guilty!
Ding Dong!!! Your brother became an emotional trash can for your mom and the things he said most likely was what your mom was thinking but lacked the ovaries to drive it home. Your mom is clever, you would be wise to proceed with caution.
You want an apology? Fuck that, that puts you in powerless position. Should you get an apology good deal but to be waiting for one or asking for one…no sir..that should not be part of your plan. Reduce your expectations.
Your brother did you a favor by explaining certain if not specific boundaries and spiced it up with wishing you were dead. Powerful statement if only taken figuratively. Re read those emails and ask yourself if having a relationship with someone who feels that way about you is worth your time and energy? I am curious.
You have the option of firing your brother and your mother and releasing them from that familial obligation to you and your wife. Perhaps that will allow you an objective perception on exactly who is playing who and for what purpose.
be cordial, be friendly, be nice.
You know, I have a number of people in my past that I don’t figure that I will ever reconcile with. Who did me wrong like your brother did you wrong. I know some of them think that I’m like a light switch and once I’ve been shut off, there is no going back. That isn’t true. What would be necessary would be an apology and admission of wrong doing in certain events. That being said, I’ve made my peace with never getting that and am not even slightly bothered (anymore) with the fact that it won’t happen.
Not sure I’d ever get past him wishing I’d died. Certainly not without any kind of recognition or apology for that. I’d probably say something along the lines of “Barring an apology for things said and done, perhaps it is best if you just move forward as if I did die in a plane crash.”
But that’s me.
If you really want to reconcile then I think you should state very simply what it would entail on both of your parts (although it’s not clear what else you could do). My guess, whatever he’s willing to do, won’t be enough since he hasn’t yet addressed the extreme comments he made to you. While I believe there are two sides to every story, you seem to accept responsibility for your part in the whole drama while managing to be the better (and saner) person. Try to imagine a future without him and your mother in it and ask yourself if that would be better or worse. In my similar situation, after trying for years, I let it go. I’m much better off because that sort of cloud can really suck the life out of you even if you aren’t dealing with the person(s) everyday.
It’s my impression that all the people in this thread who cut off contact with the toxic people in their lives is happy that they did so. If that is true, that’s something for the OP to consider.
I would also encourage you not to take an “all or nothing” view. It is probably unrealistic to expect that your brother will whole heartedly take full blame for what happened, you will hug it out, and then become besties right away. A more pragmatic goal is simply to start repairing the relationship by aiming for civility.
Act like casual acquaintances, and talk only about fun things - hobbies, sports, the weather, etc. Avoid inflammatory topics, religion, politics, and especially the family drama. You want to get used to being in each others company without charged emotions. I think simply being civil with each other and not having to avoid each other is a worthy goal in of itself.
Further down the line, when you start to warm up to each other, you may or may not decide you both want to start getting closer than that, and at that point, it may be time to start talking about the past, if it comes up organically and you are both receptive to it.
Also keep in mind that even in the extreme unlikely situation where he takes full blame, it may be too painful for him to apologize if he is embarrassed by what he said out of anger. So, take things step by step. There is no need to try to go from zero to a hundred right away.
Agreed.
However, as one that is estranged from my sister, I would urge you not to burn any remaining bridges. Even if it’s terrible now, it may not be so in the future.
So I am glad to see that there is such a range of views here. It somehow validates my own confusion and indecision…
I like the idea of not demanding an apology, but rather explaining to my brother how what he did hurt me and asking how things will be different in the future. I see where a couple of posters might come to the conclusion that my brother is toxic, but in fact he has always been very level-headed and ‘normal.’ We don’t have years of pain and mistrust to undo, really just what happened a year ago. So if we can get past that, then I am not terribly worried that he will go toxic on me again.
I agree with another couple of posters that this really all comes down to my mother’s behavior. As the eldest son, I was her main emotional support for many years (from age 6 when my parents split up to 17 when I escaped to college). The stuff I had to listen to every single day, when I myself was completely unprepared emotionally to deal with it, was deeply scarring. So with me not speaking to her and my other brother also not helping (he is a different emotional mess altogether, was institutionalized for OCD at one point, and now an undiagnosed borderline personality), all of the support fell upon George. He was better placed to deal with it age-wise, but I know from experience how truly burdensome it can be. So yeah, I can see how he might have gotten to that place. But it doesn’t make it any less painful.
This isn’t really about my mom at the moment, but of course she is the cause of all of this, and my relationship with her could go downhill again. I envy the posters who were able to break off with toxic family members without looking back. It has never been that clear-cut for me. Although I have never doubted whether I was in the right each time I cut ties with my mother, I have never felt good about it, and part of me always longs for a relationship and a whole family. That is what keeps drawing me back, and is what makes me reluctant to let my brother hang. Yeah, I guess that makes me an enabler.
One more question to you all. For those of you who have been through a similar experience where a family member said or did some really inexcusable things, but you reconciled later, how did you deal with the memories of what happened? How did you keep that from getting in the way?
Yes, this, and I would also start my response with:
“Hey bro, thanks for reaching out to me. I’ve missed you and would love to reconcile [only if that’s true, however]. But you know it’s going to take more than my presence at your wedding to resolve what happened between us and move forward in a healthy manner. If you’d like to talk about it, please let’s do so before the wedding.”
And then lead into the ground rules. I think it’s just best to be upfront about what you’re expecting/willing to put up with, that way he can decide for himself whether it’s worth his effort to continue. If it’s not, there’s your answer, and you have it squared away, rather than it being some big mystery as to how it all might work out while you tip-toe around the issues.
Expect nothing, though. From what you’ve said this sounds more like a “keeping up appearances” move than a genuine desire to reconcile on his part. Screw keeping up appearances, AFAIC – if it’s not genuine it’s not worth the effort. You can be the grown-up/better man by letting him know that door is open, but he’s gonna have to walk through it (and meet you halfway) of his own volition.
Absolutely. Your mom doesn’t have to like your wife, but she does have to be civil and, you know, a grown-up. If she can’t do that, that’s not your fault and not your problem.
In reading the background, one thing that struck me was it seems a bit unusual that your brother would lash out with such a vicious comment and behavior (not calling, visiting after your baby was born) when you said he had absolutely no such related behavior before. It just seems like such abusive behavior to suddenly come from a person who has never shown any of this type of abusive behavior before. I know all situations and relationships are different and have many factors, but thats how it seemed to me, odd that a man who has always been emotionally healthy in your relationship to suddenly display this type of really egregious behavior. I am only going on what my own experience has been, that usually this level of bad behavior comes from someone who has acted that way at least on some level in the past. is it possible he has been dysfunctional or abusive at other times but you either couldnt or didnt want to see it? In any case, I also wouldnt ask for an apology, but I would say something along the lines of how surprised you are hes inviting you, since he wished you dead in a plane crash and never visited or called after your daughters birth, and then wait to see how he responds. He may have too much pride to comment or apologize, but it really falls back on him to offer some sort of explanation or apology. If he chooses to not address what he did, I would probably tell him that until it is resolved, you wouod just feel it inappropriate for you to attend. That lets him know the responsibility for addressing his past action falls upon him, if it means enough to him, he will think about it and do something about it by talking to you about it.
I’m a rather cynical and bitter person about certain things, and this smacks of “hey, maybe you’ll send us a gift.”
I’d tell him to go fuck himself.
being a doormat is not virtuous.
This was written by a person who either does not have toxic family members or has a remarkably thick skin.
If it helps: yeah, I sometimes miss/wish for having a dad. But, here’s the point: I never had one. This guy lived in my house growing up, but he never acted like, or was, a dad to me. It’s tough because I missed out on this whole cultural phenomenon, but the fact that I don’t have a dad NOW is unrelated to the fact that I stopped interacting with this guy some years ago. I didn’t have a dad when I DID speak to him. I was never going to have a dad. It was a fundamentally impossible thing, and removing him from my life was not an act of cutting a tie, but accepting that there never had been a tie to begin with.
I have absolutely no regrets about this decision. I’m not angry about it, he’s just irrelevant to my life. I’ve got my own things going on. Whatever he does with himself is on him, just like any other stranger.
It’s been decades and my dad hasn’t changed. A number of other people have cut him out of their lives, however. You don’t need to subject yourself to people who mistreat you, and to be honest I would be surprised if your truce with your mom lasted very long. It’s okay to let it go; it doesn’t sound like you were ever holding onto a mom to begin with. Find your own happiness.
That’s a very good point; you can achieve a civil relationship without being best friends.
I think this is still all about your mom. Your brother is a sane, rational man, you’re a sane, rational man - how did the two of you get to this point? Your mom.
I think you and your brother need to open some lines of communication and have some serious, frank discussions about your family dynamics and relationships. I would bet you a dollar that your brother has some ideas about how things were that are completely different from yours - doing some good communicating might be able to clear some things up. It might help a lot to tell him what you’ve told us here - about how you were your mom’s source of support when you were too young, and how you understand how hard it was for him to take over that role. He might think that you haven’t even noticed how hard it was for him.
It sounds mean, but it sounds like you and your brother would be better off with each other in your lives and both of you cutting your toxic mother out.
This is also very good advice. Your mom is who she is; she will never change and become the perfect mother that you might wish for. You need to have a relationship with the reality of her, not with a hope of what you wish she would become.