I think you need to invite him, otherwise, ‘your’ day will, indeed, become all about him. Culturally that’s how it will be, and you bro and Mom know it. I say invite him, and ignore him like he’s invisible. I mean, the caterers are invited, technically, but you won’t give them a thought. Or consider him your Mom’s escort only, arm barnacle, nothing more. Use your strength of will to block him out completely, it won’t be that hard, your day will be exciting and full and your bro will be running interference for you.
I disagree. Having someone like that around is going to mean that Penchan spends the entire time fearful and worried that he’s going to have an outburst, yell at her, or do something else inappropriate and hurtful. His absence might cause some family drama, but that won’t ruin her wedding day like her father screaming at her and reducing her to tears would - which, from what she’s written, sounds like a distinct possibility.
You wrote this guy off, and good for you. I think it shows an inner reserve of strength you possibly weren’t aware you had. He hasn’t earned the right to be invited to your wedding. He is no kind of a parent. Tell your brother and mother that as far as you’re concerned, you don’t have a father.
And enjoy your wedding day!
Clothahump is one of those hard-nosed, right-wing types.
If you want to consider a softy/lefty opinion, you should consider my advice:
HELL NO!!!
You’ve recognized that your father is abusive, and now you are struggling with how to reject being victimized. Victim/abuse counselling might help.
If there is one day of your life you deserve to be happy on it is your wedding day. You will not be happy if your father is there, he will not allow you to be happy no matter how hard your brother tries. You being happy and succesful would prove him wrong in everything hes said about you your whole life, he will not allow this to happen. Do whats best for you, its YOUR day, you need to spend it surrounded by people who love you and care about you. Do not let him ruin any more of your memories, do not let your family convince you otherwise, appearances do not matter that day only you and your husband and the love you have for each other.
Don’t look back.
It doesn’t matter what you do; twenty years from now, at least in his own mind, everything will still be all about him. You can’t change him without his consent. I’ve learned this the hard way too.
If that’s the man he wants to be, let him be that man in someone else’s life.
You remind me so much of myself, right down to the cowering and crying. I don’t think there’s anything worse than being mocked and shamed for feeling your own feelings. There was a lot of abuse in my family. As a young adult my Mom put so much pressure on me to continue a relationship with my Stepdad even though being around him was extremely distressing. Nobody cared that I was having flashbacks every time I saw him–they just wanted to believe in this perfect family unit that didn’t exist. They told me I was selfish for not letting go and moving on. And the only one who was there for me during my long, dark teatimes of the soul was the man who is now my husband. Hell, I even cried at Full House episodes for the same reason. Truly we are cut from the same cloth.
Some family members I decided could stay and others had to go. Some had to go temporarily and some had to go permanently. Some I still talk to, but they are gone from my heart. Only you can make this decision, but based on all the hurt and anguish that man has caused in your life, and how much he still vexes you, it sounds like he needs to go. I can’t think of a single redeeming quality this man has–can you? Is anything he could give worth the heartache he makes you feel? You need to surround yourself with people who you know love and support you, like your husband-to-be. People might give you shit for not inviting your Dad, but it won’t matter later.
One thing that helped me when I was really depressed was reminding myself that all of the things that seemed like obstacles too big to overcome would eventually be just ghosts of my past. Everything is temporary, even the hurt and conflict you are feeling right now. I promise things can and will get better, but the first step is ending your dependence on these people who would only hurt you. You can always change your mind later, when you are stronger and his power over you is gone, as I chose to do with my mother. You don’t have to decide once and for all… you can decide based on what you need now.
Congratulations on your engagement. I hope your future with your husband allows the two of you to create all the love and support you never received as a child.
Fake Edit: Well said, Fish.
I wonder if an Asian-American counseling group would be helpful. Sometimes talking about family issues with a group of peers from a similar cultural background can help you come up with creative solutions that take both cultures into account.
“Don’t take it personally?!” Exactly how, pray tell, do they expect you to take the barrages of very explicitly personal abuse? Of course they have the latitude to make excuses and bleat about how important appearances are. They’ve never been in the line of fire. Your brother’s generous “gift” of protection at the wedding is insulting, frankly. He isn’t protecting you; he certainly didn’t bother before. The “gift” is…to keep up appearances, i.e. prevent your father from making too much of a scene. It’s little more than bribery, and entirely self-serving.
This man will not change. He will be just as abusive as can because he gets something out of it. His excuses, i.e. doing it for your own good, are ridiculous. He may be mentally ill, he may not. Either way, he’s still responsible for his actions. And your mother and brother are responsible for actively enabling his abuse. They endorsed his abusiveness and allowed it to continue. They are complicit, and in absolutely no position to preach propriety.
And concerning appearances: they are pressuring you to cooperate with your father’s abuse yet again to save his face–and theirs. So what’s the worst that could happen if you steadfastly refuse? Your father gets angry. Inmaterial; he will be angry no matter what you do. Brother gets angry because his bribe, er, “gift” didn’t work. So what? Brother never acted like a brother thus far; you aren’t out a single thing. Mother upset? She should be. She should be rending her face with her nails and tearing out her hair in clumps in guilt for passively allowing a vicious asshole to systematically terrorize and degrade her child. None of these people have any face to lose. They threw it away with both hands years ago.
What’s really at stake here, Penchan, is putting up a pretty paper facade for the comfort and convenience of your mother and brother. Your father is beneath contempt. He’s toxic to your health and well-being. You’d have to be flat-out nuts to allow him to seethe on the fringes of your wedding, like a grenade with a faulty pin. If you can’t say ‘no’ on your own behalf, then do it for your fiance. It’s your day, yours and his, and he doesn’t deserve to have his wedding day soiled by a rage junkie either.
As my grandmother used to say, start as you mean to go on.
Your OP really resonated with me because my husband comes from a similar situation, only swap ‘alcohol’ for ‘mental illness’ and take away the cultural baggage. He was also the first to stand up against his father, and even though my in-laws are now divorced there’s still some baggage between my husband and MIL because of it.
Owls wants me to share one of his biggest concerns–he doesn’t want me in a position to be hurt by his father. I have barely met my FIL, and have been encouraged not to talk to him. In our case that would be very dangerous because he is intelligent and charming (and actually we think he does have a mental issue, but he’s too smart to ever get diagnosed) on top of being manipulative and abusive. While your fiance has already met your father, the potential damage to him might be worth keeping in mind.
I see a lot of my husband’s emotional scars in your posts here. You’ve been hurt enough, and personally I’d say to not invite him to your wedding, cultural norms or not. That is not a day where you want to have to be running from toxic family members. Either way, going forward I would keep him out of your life to the greatest degree possible, and certainly don’t let him get too close to your kids–I would be afraid that they would suffer in much the same way you have.
As far as the ‘that’s just how he is’ comments…you can’t change him, but that doesn’t mean you should put up with it either. Your mental health is more important than family appearances.
Oh, and my FIL wasn’t invited to our wedding.
This is what I really wanted to say, Penchan, and probably could have if I’d been more sober and less angry.
The entire post are good words, and better advice. You’ll make your own decision, Penchan, but you could do far worse than heed these words.
Let me get this straight.
He emotionally abused you to the point you nearly killed yourself, and your mother and brother say that you must invite him to the wedding because “that’s the way he is” and “you mustn’t rock the boat?”
I three-peat the posters above:
Oh, hell NO!
He has not earned the privilege of attending your wedding. He has not earned the privilege of being in your life. For Og’s sake, you haven’t talked to him in a year and a half…has the man made no effort to reach out, to apologize?
You owe him NOTHING. He doesn’t get to be in your life anymore. You invite him to your wedding, you’re inviting him to be a part of your married life. And quite frankly, sweetie, you aside, I don’t think your hubby-to-be deserves that, do you? Doesn’t he deserve a loving, happy wife, not one who goes into a tailspin every time her father calls?
There’s a quote I heard once…you can’t pet an alligator sitting on your lap and expect it to purr. Quit hoping your father can be the father he was supposed to be and move on with your life. Build your new life and let go the dead weight from the past.
Sorry to quibble with an otherwise excellent post, but you are the second person to suggest the brother was somehow complicit in this abuse. How is a child supposed to protect another child from abuse? He may not have been in the line of fire, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he wasn’t in constant fear that he would be. Children are not in the position to be reasonable about their circumstances–he was just as helpless as she was. His offer to be a buffer indicates at least that he acknowledges the abuse is happening, which is more than can be said for all the so-called responsible adults in this scenario. For all we know this offer is based just as much in his own fear of his father as it is in Penchan’s. The only people responsible for what happened to Penchan are her parents.
I believe in forgiveness, I hope you can see the faults as his faults. They have cost him more because he can not see what it has cost him.
Bad behavior has results. I would say do not have anyone at your wedding that you do not want to. It is your day and everything in it should be a joy to you. I walked one of my kids (not my child) down the aisle at her wedding because she did not want her dad there. This day is not about your father saving face, it is about celerbrating your wedding.
If you descide that you will allow your dad there set up rules for his behavior with the understanding that if he steps out of line he will be asked to leave. Have someone prepaired to call the police to escort him out if necessary and let your dad know that that back up will be there. And if he takes one step out of line have your wedding party escort yu from the room until he is gone.
As far as future children, if you let him around them keep an eye on them with the same understanding.
My dad cut himself off from his family before I was born. For years us kids always wondered about them. Your children will miss knowing their grandfather. But as an adult we did get to meet that side of the family and I am glad I did. I now understand my dad better and am more greatfull for him. Also I do not go around that side of the family he was right it is better just to stay away. So if you let your kids go around your father protect them at the same time.
by the way my dad was able to forgive his relitives, but he just did not go around them.
Hope this helps.
And congradulations on geting married.
Fuck him. You don’t need him. You don’t need your brother and mother either. If they want to come to your wedding, they can beg for forgiveness and help you bury his body.
I think this is about more than just you and your dad, it’s about the way this family of four operates and your role within it. Your brother and mother don’t scream and yell, yet they will try to belittle your concerns to get you to put up with the status quo, so they also are a part of this. Unless you are ready to cut these two out as well (which is perfectly fine IMHO but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you want yet), then I think you will need to find a way to new interact with them that doesn’t lead to them trying to strong-arm you. And it does sound like you already know what to do about your father, it’s your mother and brother that you’re not sure how to handle.
If your parents were divorced and your brother didn’t give a shit about appearances then this would be easy, but that’s not the case so I think this is much more complicated then just deciding to cut off your dad. I know this is a canned answer but I think talking to someone (or a group, as susan suggest) would help you sort things out.
Wow, I didn’t expect so much feedback! My fiance, TonyF went online first this morning. He came to the couch where I was sitting and thinking about last night’s responses and he said that my thread was getting pretty full!
Thank everyone for all of your kind and supportive words. I can’t tell you enough how much this means to me.
Since I don’t want to post a novel, I’ll try to respond to everyone’s posts the best that I can rather than individually.
My mom and brother were both in the line of fire of my dad’s anger all these years. My dad talks down to my mom all the time and she yells right back. My brother had enough and he stood over my father and told him to his face “what are you going to do about it?” and since then my dad’s backed off. My brother admits that my dad is crude and even compared him to a dog. He said you have to treat my dad like a dog - you have to show your dominance or he’ll keep biting at you. I’ve tried to stand up for myself but decades of abuse have taken their toll and I always eventually end up in tears. I’m already at a disadvantage because my dad doesn’t respect women so he doesn’t think I’m worth listening to. I know my mom and brother went through what I did, they’re just reacting differently to my dad. I think my reaction to my dad just reminds them how much he’s hurt them too.
I hope you all know that whenever I get to ‘the bad place’ as TonyF refers to it, he’s always there for me to calm me down and hold me until I get better again. I can also go to my in-laws’ house if I wanted to. I practically spent my senior year at his parent’s house because my dad scared me so much. (Thankfully, my counselor and I figured out ways to avoid him so he wouldn’t continue to hurt me.) His parents knew what was going on in my house and they even offered to let me live at their house until I went to college so I wouldn’t be around my dad. I truly owe them a dept of gratitude for always being there for me too and acting as surrogate parents when mine weren’t acting like parents. I’m really considering having my FIL walk me down the aisle because even though we didn’t speak much, he was much more of a father than my own.
I am also planning on going to counseling right after the wedding. Right now our finances are a bit tight what with saving for the wedding. But I know that I won’t get better until I face my demons and reconcile my mixed emotions. TonyF said he’ll go with me to help me with my recovery. I hope by that point I won’t ever have to speak to my dad again.
Lately I’ve been talking to my mom and asking her if I should invite my dad. At first she said without hesitation that I should invite him. But within the last few months she’s just been quiet and asking me if I wanted him there. I told her that I don’t, but I know my relatives will be upset that I didn’t invite him (all of my relatives know how abusive he is, but not the extent that my dad has directly messed me up). My mom and brother are saying that it’s my decision, but they think it would be easier to have him there and just keep him away from me.
I also told my mom that I don’t want my kids near him because I don’t want him to say anything to them that will hurt them. She hasn’t responded to that yet, even though I’ve said it to her about a dozen times. I think she wants to agree with me, but as my mother and future grandmother, she doesn’t want me to close the door on the possibility that my dad will get to see my kids.
Luckily, TonyF has a somewhat good relationship with my dad (he fixes my dad’s computer every time he breaks his computer which is about once every few months) and has exerted his dominance over my dad in the past. He also understands the intricasies regarding our culture and he knows he can’t just walk in, tell my dad to shut the hell up and leave me alone forever. He knows how deep the cultural politics are. But at least I know that if push comes to shove, TonyF will do what needs to be done.
I’m just tired and I want my dad to stay out of my life. I think after the wedding that will be it. I still don’t know if I want to make it somewhat easier and invite him to the wedding so I won’t have to hear from my millions of relatives how ungrateful and horrible of a daughter I am. I’ve already had about 25 years of that and that’s enough for me.
This needs to be clarified, I think.
I believe these posts are an answer to the question “should I invite my father to the wedding?”. Not to the question in the subject line “should I write my father off?”. Correct? (as in, invite? hell no. Write off? hell yes). If I’m misquoting, then my apologies.
My own answer:
How about a letter like this:
Dear Sir:
{summarization of everything in the OP}
What you did to me does not and never did qualify as any reasonable effort to improve me, but rather to destroy me.
You are my father. There is no changing that. I recognize that you suffer from mental illness yourself and this may explain - but not excuse - your treatment of me as a child and as a young adult. I must act in such a way as to preserve my own health.
Therefore, I request that you have no further contact with me until such time as you have sought help for your own anger issues, and I receive confirmation of this both from Mother, Brother and the mental health professional who is counselling you. Until that time, I will refuse all contact with you.
I understand you are worried about “losing face” if you do not attend my wedding. However, your past behavior makes it impossible for me to believe that you can truly behave appropriately to me on such an occasion. Therefore, unless you have proven that you have sought counselling before that occasion, you will not be permitted entry.
(or the short answer, to the subject line question, “yes”).
Oh, and I forgot to add that my dad does ask about me to my mom. He gets his updates on me from her. I even see him a few times a week when I visit my mom. I just ignore him and he ignores me. Other than that, I have no contact with him. The most contact that I get is him calling TonyF’s cell phone asking him to fix his computer again.
I think his silence is his way of saying he’s sorry. My family doesn’t ever apologize for anything. They just keep quiet for a while then act like nothing happened. I apologized to my brother a few years back for something small and he started fidgeting, mumbled something then walked off. My family doesn’t have issues, it has volumes - no - a daily newsletter!
Mama Zappa, I’ve asked TonyF about asking my dad to go to counseling and we both agree that he would take it as an affront and start yelling at me. I think I need to go to counseling first so I can build up my armor against my dad before I approach him. At which point, depending on his behavior, I can write him off. But now is not the right time. I’m not ready for that yet.
What do you have to apologize for here?
Nothing.
It is time for YOU to stop worrying about how HE will feel. Time to stop worrying about how others will feel about how he feels.
Your father doesn’t approve of you and never has. I know this story because it is my own. There comes a time when you have to stop worrying about gaining that approval that you’ll never get, and move on with your life.
One bit of advice I can give you: Stop tolerating the abuse. End it the minute it begins, every single time. Until he gets the message.
If he yells at you over the phone, don’t wait until he stops, simply immediately say (even while he’s yelling) “I’m not going to let you yell at me” and hang up. Disconnect the phone for a while if he calls back. Delete any voicemails WITHOUT listening to them.
If he yells at you in person, LEAVE. Turn and walk away without a word. KEEP GOING no matter what he says. Leave and do not even look back. Even if that means walking out on others.
If he shows up on your doorstep in the midst of all this, DO NOT LET HIM IN. Just turn and walk away the moment you see him there. Leave by another door if you have to.
If you absolutely have to explain to others, simply say that you’re not going to allow hi m to yell at you or abuse you anymore, and that you are going to choose to walk away every time. You’re not going to engage him, you’re not going to respond, you’re not going to yell or get angry, but likewise you’re not going to stand there and take it. That this is the way it is, and if they don’t like it, then they can talk to HIM about his behavior, because it’s wrong.
Hell, the last time my father hit me, I was 16. He chased me into my room, broke my door and found me on the other side with a gun pointed at his face. He never hit me again.
At the age of 23, he started yelling at me while I was helping him move a refrigerator. I set down my end at the top of the stairs and went inside, leaving him standing at the bottom of the steps holding the damned refrigerator. He didn’t yell at me for years.
The next time, I was 36 and he was working on my house, standing on a ladder handing me down a window. When he started yelling at me, I stopped reaching for the window, told him that I wasn’t going to tolerate him yelling at me at my own damned house, and went inside for three minutes, leaving him standing on the ladder holding a window. You betcha he was mortified and conciliatory after that one, even if he did take a few days off from helping me because of how it hurt him. But he got the message.
Just stick to your guns, stick to your message.