Penchan, I think there’s more going on than just the issues with your dad. You have low self esteem, and are worried that other people will think you’re a bad daughter for not inviting him to your wedding.
What you need to realize is that this is YOU and TONYF’s day. If there are relatives that won’t understand you not inviting your father, they don’t get invited either. Your wedding day is when you celebrate your love with your soulmate and begin your life together. You should only surround yourself with love and support. If that means eloping or having a simple ceremony with his parents, then so be it.
Quit worrying what other people think. You and TonyF know the truth. That’s all that matters.
I guess I’ve calmed down a bit since 2 a.m. But this makes me sad. If this all happened to you as an adult, it would say more about his wounds than yours, but he has wounded you terribly and if he ever comes to grip with that it would be even worse for him. I have never walked a few feet in his shoes, much less a mile, and I suppose that life was hell for him to turn out this way. You deserve better than what he was able to give, and he undoubtedly deserved better than whatever awful thing happened to him. But at some point in our lives, we must become adults and accept responsibility for what our actions do to others and to make amends, that is to fix as best as possible, the consequences of our sins.
You were only a child, and he was an adult. As much as he wanted another son, a daughter was his gift, and he projected only his own fear and pains onto you. You must now make the best of your life. May it be wonderful and filled with joy. May you help many people find redemption in the time you have among us.
You don’t have to stand up to him, or exert dominance, or treat him like a dog. You have to do absolutely nothing but cut him off from your life. You and your fiance deserve a life without him in it, what other people think should be no concern of yours.
Your story is similar to my husband’s, only in his case he had an abusive sibling, and the adults in the family did nothing to stop it. It didn’t stop until he was a teenager and threatened to call the police. My inlaws still claim that they have no idea why he’s so upset, they “don’t remember” any abuse, etc. Denial and Saving Face run deep in his family.
I agree with others that you should strengthen yourself and remove your father from your life. You may need to limit contact with other family members as well, depending on how they treat you. I’m going to tell you a secret: Their disapproval does nothing to you. Seriously. It’s upsetting, but it doesn’t fundamentally change your life. You can let it wash over you and pass by and find that you’re still standing, you’re still you, and nothing can change that.
We’ve found that eliminating toxic people, and limiting contact with some others, has left us with more time and energy for the wonderful other friends and family we have. It’s only been 10 years since he set his boundaries, and we honestly couldn’t be happier. We now spend our time only with people who are kind and generous, and feel genuinely blessed.
Take care of yourselves, both of you. And congratulations.
Everyone has done this to some fictional character for family. It is perfectly normal.
There is no such thing as a normal family. Every family screwed up in their own special way, how it effects you and your mental health is what matters. If it is too much, step away for awhile and keep things on your terms.
Your Dad could be parenting the exact way his parents treated him, pushing him hard to be successful. Maybe it is all he knows. Maybe he is a big huge idiot. But, no parent before they are parents say to themselves, " I am going to fuck up my children this way and that way."
Outside of cultural stuff, I’ve found that parents that ride one child really, really hard (and the other(s) skate free) is because THAT child most closely resembles the parental unit. Ergo, they see themselves in that child and usually butt heads.
He sounds rigid and severe towards women, which is probably grounded in his upbringing. Is he use to being catered too?
You cannot change your childhood. YOu can only learn from it and decide what you want to do with your outlook and how you treat others and future family members.
My advice… write him a letter and tell him in specific terms that due to his historic mistreatment of you, he is not entitled to an automatic invitation to any significant event of yours. To be invited, he must send a request in writing, which will include an assurance that he will not be abusive or make a scene. This way, if he doesn’t show, you can tell everyone that it was his choice not to come. And don’t let this communication be sent through intermediaries… if you send it through your mother, you can expect it will be softened and distorted.
But don’t bother even hinting that an apology would be nice, because it ain’t gonna happen.
This is a good answer on how to handle your father. Also include the fact that if he breaks his word he will be asked to leave, and let him know that there will be others to back this up.
I wouldn’t invite him. He has not earned the right to attend your wedding as your father. He hasn’t earned the right to be in your adult life. I try not to completely close any door, but at least for now you need to be away from him.
Respect is a two way street and it sounds like he has done nothing to show any respect. Not inviting him is not about punishing him for what he has done in the past, it is about protecting you and allowing you to move on with your life free from such oppressive cruelty.
So… you’ve got this person who’s been abusive to you your whole life and is now worried that you will finally now do what he doesn’t want you to do. That is to say, showing your relatives that he is not an infallible head-of-the-family.
I suspect that he’s been quiet to you simply because he wants to go to your wedding. (Most likely, not because he wants to go to your wedding, but because it will look bad if he isn’t there.)
There is a reason why it ‘looks bad’ for him not to go: it means he was such a bad father that you don’t want your (repeat: YOUR) day to be marred by his presence. And it does look bad; it looks horrible. Sometimes, the truth ain’t pretty.
I’m another person voting for you to tell him that he’s not coming, and tell him why. Write it in a letter, if you choose. I can also see what Quasimodem is saying; you never know what the future will bring, and one would like to think that all people can mend their ways and form a meaningful relationship, eventually. But, let your father be the one to make the changes, should such a future occur; let your father know that he has to make changes should he want a different future.
Understand, though, that your mother and brother both still have ties with him. Your hardest battles may be with them. Not in a down-and-out ugly screaming match, but rather with the millions of tiny little comments and beggings they make. I would be prepared to talk to them, or write a letter, too. I think you are going to have to draw three lines in the sand. Mother and brother need to know how much this means to you.
Good luck. Perhaps you can take heart in the fact that you will soon lose his last name for a new one.
I asked my mom yesterday if I could just not invite my dad to my wedding. She responded with:
…we’ll see.
My dad has been extra horrible to her and my brother lately so I think it’s really starting to sink in with her that he might ruin my day. I told her that I didn’t want him to upset me on my special day. She said he wouldn’t but when I looked at her, she just pursed her lips and changed the subject.
I would really love to write a letter detailing why I don’t want to talk to my dad, but he wouldn’t read the entire letter. My parents weren’t born in the U.S. so they aren’t fluent in English. Having to read a letter written in English, as simple as I may put it will already annoy him.
I have to just lay it out for him in person, but I’m not ready for that yet.
As for the comment that I shouldn’t talk to him like a dog, just talk to him period, that’s how my family has always dealt with my dad. The only way he will listen is if you gruffly say in simple terms what you want to say to him. If you talk normally he’ll say you’re not being loud or assertive enough and start yelling at you. It seems he links talking loudly and gruffly with you having something important to talk to him about.
JustAnotherGeek, my MIL actually pointed out the fact that by next Christmas, I’ll be married. She asked if I was going to be another insert their last name and I emphatically said yes. I said I didn’t want my last name anymore. She just smiled kind of sadly and nodded her head. I’m glad that she knows of my past so I don’t have to explain my statements.
I know a lot of you think I’m crazy for even considering inviting him to my wedding, but there are so many complex components at hand. Yes he was abusive toward me, but there are also deep-seated cultural aspects I have to keep in mind as well. My decision impacts my family, as crappy as they treated me over the years. If there weren’t the cultural issues, I’d just be a part of my fiance’s family and visit my family ocassionally. But that’s life for you. You work with the hand you were dealt with and hope to god that you don’t crap out.
Unless your parents are helping to pay for the wedding she doesn’t get a vote on whether or not your father attends.
I won’t pretend that I understand all the cultural nuances you have to deal with. Suffice to say that regardless of where one is born, abusing your child is never acceptable.
Certainly there must be some way to provide a letter written in the native tongue, maybe draw upon other friends or family? You say your mother seems to be coming around, but on this matter, don’t count on her in the clinch. She probably will not be able to perform.
I know you cite cultural reasons right and left… we all have them, to be sure. But consider that people are people before they are Chinese, Egyptian, whatever. You may be surrounded by a bunch of people who are silently sick of the shit and would support someone standing up for herself. That’s what America is all about. You don’t have to drag that old-world baggage around with you forever.
Nah, not crazy. Disentangling from family is rarely cut and dry, and maybe you fear losing all contact with any of them if you rock the boat too hard?
Anyway, if keeping him away might not be a viable option for you, maybe the better strategy is to figure out how to not let him ruin the day if he is there and goes off. What if you go into it assuming that he’s likely to go off, but that your response will be to say very directly: “Dad, I’m not going to argue with you,” then walk away. Repeat as needed. Practice this with your future hubby ahead of time, until the response is so automatic that you think you can pull it off without tears. So if he does yell, rather than thinking about how awful it is that he’s yelling at you, you’ve got an escape strategy. Then, if you need to let out some emotion, find a safe place to do it away from him.
Bullies feed off of cowering. It often doesn’t take much to confuse them if you don’t behave in the pattern they’re used to. A woman at work kept trying to bully me until one time, I literally laughed in her face when she said something nasty and I started teasing her with it. She had no idea how to respond to that, and she stopped trying to intimidate me thereafter. Actually, she treats me with kid gloves now. I think it’s because she isn’t really sure how to manage me now that she knows I’ll never bow to intimidation.
Hmmm. From that perspective, what really might disarm your father is if you respond to anything nasty he says with a simple “Have a nice day,” before you walk away from him.
Maybe he simply won’t talk to you, though, if you don’t make a big issue of his presence, since he’s not talking to you now. Would it be culturally embarrassing to him to start yelling at you in front of a room full of wedding guests? I’m just thinking that would make him look really out of control, so maybe there are some cultural pressures in your favor.
I am glad that you are pursuing counselling, though, to help sort out a longer term solution to this. As others are saying, I don’t care what culture someone is from. Absolutely nobody deserves to be abused. But it might take more time than you’ve got at the moment to sort through how to fully disengage. So do what you can do in the meantime to protect yourself.
We’re just strangers on the internet, Penchan. We’re happy to discuss the problem you’ve outlined but you’re certainly under no obligation to do anything suggested here. In fact, you’d really be crazy to do anything but what will work best for you–and you’re the ultimate judge of that.
I don’t know what the complex cultural issues are, and don’t need to know, but so far I’d guess how family ceremonies are handled are important in your parents’ circle. It sounds like you’d like to at least keep the option open to maintain some sort contact with your family after your marriage. Both fairly correct assumptions?
It sounds like your mother knows perfectly well how volatile your father can be. (I’m being tactful there; he acts like a jackass.) If she’s handling his latest tantrums she may be tempted to bar the jerk from your wedding but I wouldn’t count on her ever agreeing–or sticking to it, even if she gave in in a weak moment. If your parents are paying for the wedding you may not have any choice. Simple fact. Their money, their rules. Even if they aren’t, the cultural expectations you mention may still apply, to the degree you still embrace them.
Your family has treated you like crap. To what degree, if any, would that treatment change after your marry? It sounds like your fiance copes with your father within a very limited context, i.e. computer repairs. Realistically, would your father stem his abuse out of deference to your then-husband? Not to be tacky, but would he assume you’re not his to abuse any more, having handed off that “right” to your husband?
The reason I ask is more to clarify what is the best you can hope for from your family after your marriage. If the simple fact of marrying will change your status as free-target for your father, then perhaps there’s something worth salvaging. If not, I really question to what degree you could or should allow yourself, and especially your children, to be exposed to such toxic behavior. After marriage, your husband will have a voice about you are treated. That’s what marriage means: you two will be an official team. I can’t help but believe your husband, and his family as well, would have very strong opinions on how your father would act in front of your children as well.
I don’t know any of those answers but you may looking at a break from your father sometime down the road anyway. If you can just scrape through the wedding day somehow, with your brother acting as enforcer, that’s one thing. But the wedding is just one day. What are the longterm cultural ramifications for your marriage, especially in terms of your father?
It would help, I think, to talk a lot with your fiance and do it now. Both of you need to be in solid agreement over how you’ll handle The Father From Hell. It’s bad enough if just one nerve-wracking ceremonial day is at risk. If odds are you’ll need to distance yourselves anyway, that poses different questions: when? what will waiting gain/cost? how much contact? under what conditions? how to enforce your distance/rules?
Just some reflections. But first and foremost, best of luck to you and your fiance, Penchan, in whatever you decide. FWIW, I don’t think there are any “right” answers in messy family situations. All any of us can do is the best we can and hope for the best.
Cosmic Relief, I don’t mean to use my bi-cultural experience as an excuse for my dad, I wanted to give you all a heads up of why I’m not cutting my losses and running away from my dad. Although he has abused me, and it is not right in any situation, I still want to somehow respect my culture and its values (honor your family). I’m trying to reconcile these mixed and confusing emotions.
Which is why it’s funny Lavender Falcon, that my dad acts this way toward me, especially in public. Normally you have your familial issues just within the family. My dad doesn’t care about what anyone thinks and will yell at you no matter who you are. He yells at his own mother like he yells at me. He has only shown deference and respect to one person: his father. I miss my paternal grandfather. He was such a kind man and he always stood up for me when my dad yelled at me. He was the only person who could yell at my dad and my dad couldn’t lash back. Unfortunately my grandfather passed away 10 years ago so there’s no one who can keep my dad under control.
When my dad goes off in front of family, they literally look the other way and pretend they’re not hearing anything. In my family, unless you’re immediately related to that person, you don’t interfere in another’s relationships. It’s pretty shady, but that’s how we keep the facade of a happy and success family up. If you pretend that nothing happens, then there’s nothing to mar that perfect image.
You bring up some great points, TVeblen. I am going to keep contact with all of my family except my dad after my wedding. I’ve made peace with my mom and brother and have forgiven them for their past actions.
Regarding the expenses for our wedding - we’re paying for it ourselves. We’re adults and this elaborate party is for us, not to mention that we want to have the ceremony and reception the way we want it.
As for my dad’s possible change in behavior after I get married, I very much doubt it. If my dad can’t even respect his own mother, I doubt he’ll respect me more after I get married.
I started this thread to ask if I should pay one last respect to my dad and invite him and then stop talking to him after that. If things change, then I’ll re-evaluate the situation. As of now, regardless of what we decide for the wedding, my dad will not be in our lives. I want to start our own happy family without the negative influence of my dad. TonyF agrees that unless there is a total 180 change in my dad, that he shouldn’t be around our children. I cannot trust him to be near me so I cannot trust him to be around something as precious to me as my children.
I’m sorry for this situation, Penchan. Nobody should be treated like that.
That said, I say cut back on the party favors and start counseling NOW. From your posts it sounds like this is still running your life. More importantly, your relationship with TonyF seems to be deeply wound up with your relationship with your father. Indeed, it seems like your emotional life is pretty much a reaction to your father. And this isn’t a healthy place to begin a marriage.
A loving and supportive partner can do a hell of a lot of good when you are hurting. But he can’t fix the pain forever. You need to learn to face and overcome this pain on your own. Otherwise your marriage will turn into a reaction to how your father treated you and eventually end up with it’s own set of twisted emotional complications. An emotionally healthy family begins with two emotionally healthy people, and to me it seems like you just aren’t there yet. You guys are going to need to work on this together before you start bringing kids into the scene.
I have a father like yours. I’m not Asian, so this isn’t a cultural thing, but it’s how he was raised. I was useless to him. He didn’t want another child, especially a girl. My brother can do no wrong in his eyes. He got pleasure out of making me cry—so much that he’d laugh about it—and was abusive to my mother and my brother. Sometimes me, but only a few times. It’s like I wasn’t even worth hitting to him.
But I never wrote him off. I just lessened contact, like you’ve done, and I learned that I’m a valuable person and that it’s truly sad and pathetic that he would think screaming a bunch of lies at me would destroy me as a person. Now, if he tries to sink his teeth in and hurt me, I just roll my eyes and ignore it. It ends up making him look ridiculous and stupid, especially in front of other people.
In the end, this is about you. Not him. You’re becoming a stronger person every day. You’ll never forget how he treated you, and those wounds will always be there, but there will be a time when he can’t make new wounds. You won’t have to write him off completely.
I know you feel as though you can’t really stand up to him, but you might not always feel that way. I did stand up to my father eventually. He was screaming at me, told me he wanted me out of his house, that I was lazy, useless, stupid, etc. I snapped and screamed back. I told him he was a weak, horrible father. I told him I knew he didn’t want me and for many years didn’t believe I was his daughter. I got inches away from his face and told him to go ahead and hit me, like I knew he wanted to. I’ve never seen him back down from a fight before that moment.
It was the strongest I’ve ever felt. But it wasn’t that I treated him like a dog, or demonstrated “dominance,” like his condition is normal and I should just learn how to deal with it by teaching him tricks. I just showed him that I wasn’t a weak, terrified little girl anymore, and that he could no longer make me cry. That I was a strong person, and I became one without his help. I made him realize, even if it was a fleeting realization, that he wasn’t in control anymore.
He’s still a genuinely angry person, but he knows he can’t hurt me anymore. He knows I’ve changed, even if he hasn’t. I don’t know if any of this helps you, but I wanted you to know that I really do understand what you’ve been through.
As for your wedding…It’s your decision. Though, I think you’re going to be so happy on that day that it won’t matter. If your father is there, he’ll be upset he isn’t the center of attention, but what should you care? You’re getting MARRIED! \o/
I’m sorry about your situation, Penchan. My wife’s mom is Asian and I get a little sense of the situation, as she is also schizo all to hell and treats my wife horribly most of the time. I see in her how manic she gets about “appearances” and following the rules of her culture and what she thinks our culture’s are.
So, as I see it, your real choice is to allow your Dad to come, or to completely bar your family en masse. Your dad doesn’t deserve any part of you, but you can’t wish him away–he does exist. I think if you didn’t invite him, but had the rest of the family, he would take it out on them and make them miserable attending without him. Everyone will be abuzz on your side and that will make the tension as bad as if he were there.
I think you should take the unalterable facts and make them work for you as well as you can. How about this?:
Send an invitation to your mom without mention of him. Understand he will probably come.
Make it known that you will rise above him and be a better person than him by allowing him to be there for the sake of appearances. Also make it known that he will NOT have a role and will not be acknowleged, except as an escort to your mom. He will behave as any other guest and “face in the crowd” and all will go fine.
If he goes off the rails, make it known that he will be publicly dressed-down and humiliated. This will be done by your new husband, not you. You will be spared having to deal with this on your special day and it will serve notice that your are TonyF’s wife and no longer his daughter. It will be made known that he paid for nothing and is only there out of your good graces and he will be asked/compelled to leave. TonyF will be coldly polite and behave with class on his part and not allow himself or you to be pulled down to his level.
The choice for him will be this: 1) Go and sit quietly and get up and leave when it’s over and maintain “appearances” among your family and guests, or 2) Be an ass to you and be totally disrespected and humiliated in front of them.
This can also serve as a milepost for your relationship that as of now, this is your new family now and there is no desire for him to have any part of your life–dismissed. Draw your strength from your new family and show him that what he thinks or says about you no longer matters to you. You can’t control the past or your dad, but you do control your life going forward.
As for your children–that’s not a public event and you can cut him off as it pleases you. The issue is not what HE wants, but what you want for your kids. You’ll do fine there–you have a great example of how NOT to be to them and make them happy.
