I can see where you’re coming from, I just disagree. I don’t place any blame on a woman for choosing to become pregnant, nor do I care how someone with a broken leg got that way. I just don’t think they’re entitled to an already occupied seat, is all.
That’s not to say we can’t/shouldn’t be nice. It’s a completely different issue from what the threads in question were asking (whether someone is entitled). In fact, if we do something for someone because we feel they are entitled that’s not really being nice. It’s fulfilling an expectation. We should do nice things for people in part because they aren’t entitled. That’s what makes it nice.
I just read that post differently, I guess. It seemed to me like she was really asking if she should expect to be able to sit down, or if she should just tough it out. To which my natural response is “Of course you can sit down; don’t be silly.” Not because I’m trying to be condescending or to prove how much nicer I can be than other people, but just because I’m going to assume she wouldn’t ask unless she really felt like she needed to sit.
To me, this doesn’t have as much to do with people being for and against “breeding” as it does the age-old debate as to whether manners are some sort of sacred thing or whether they’re an outmoded social concept that encourages a sort of dishonesty. It’s not so much about kids or male vs. female or anything like that. It’s about the assumptions we make about other people and how we react to them. Given that, I can see how it’s gone and spawned a third thread. It’s a big issue and people have strong opinions.
Besides, I kind of assume that by the sixth page of a thread, you’re going to get down to people who won’t change their opinions no matter what you say. It’s usually gotten too personal by then. A fresh thread is kind of a fresh start, if that makes sense.
I didn’t read her post that way. I don’t think her entire premise was should a pregnant woman expect to have a seat offered to her. That’s your interpretation.
She seem to me to be asking if pregnancy would fall into the catagory of the handicapped/elderly seating and if it would be a valid reason for asking someone to give up her seat.
She said this in her second post.
She seemed to be asking for clarification about whether it was acceptable to ask.
I’m not saying the thread didn’t veer off into different directions, but no where in her original post did she say she expected to have a seat because she was pregnant. She was asking if it was proper to ask for a seat. I think you read too much into her post. The thread title was a little misleading and didn’t exactly jibe with what she was asking.
Well, of course they aren’t ‘entitled’, that would be the case if there was some kind of law or rule that demanded I give up my seat in favor of the pregnant, women, the elderly or the disabled. I would oppose that sort of legislation even though I do as a matter of habit and conviction offer my seat to all of the above. Courtesy means nothing if it is forced. What I had a problem with is that some saw my courtesies as being rude based on not much good evidence that I could tell. If somebody comes into my home I offer them a drink and then I make one for them. I don’t do this because I assume guests are too feeble to get their own drinks, if a guest to my house feels they are ‘entitled’ to a drink they are mistaken (and rude) but it is something I do because it is the correct way to treat a guest.
Why not just err on the side that will make things more pleasant for people? Don’t assume you will get preferential treatment no matter what your circumstances, offer your seat (or help or a kind word… lot’s of things) to those who could be in need of assistance, give the benefit of the doubt to parents with small children, parents with small children should remove their progeny from public places if they are misbehaving and correct their children’s manners, respect a lady’s right to remain childfree and pursue her own interests because those are important to every human being, respect a lady’s right to have children and give them the respect that motherhood as an unpaid yet tremendously important job deserves, don’t use belittling terms for a group of people for any reason because it reflects poorly on you. This is simple stuff people, at least I thought it was.
I’d just argue that being pregnant is special. It is how we all got here (well, almost all). For example, when you hear a news report about say, an assault, we tend to think that’s fucked up if the victim is an able-bodied man. We think it’s even more fucked up if we hear the victim is a child, a person with a disability, a pregnant woman, or an elderly person… these groups, in our society and many others, are viewed as special and deserving of extra consideration. There are other groups that can claim that status as well - people temporarily disabled, the recently bereaved, and so on.
If you are member of any of these groups (excepting children - you might not assume or expect this) and you live in a Western society, you’d be kind of dense to not assume that people generally will offer you deference and extra consideration - to a point. Yes, any extreme assumption can be condescending and should be rejected - that point, I guess is somewhat subjective. I’ve seen strangers say to others, “There’s a pregnant lady coming on the bus,” and people of all shapes and sizes magically get up to provide her a spot. I suppose one could stand their ground because they think that’s going to far, but I think those folks are few and far between.
As a teacher, I had to conduct fire drills - and part of the protocol was identifying and assisting the kids with developmental disorders and disabilities first. I was an elementary school teacher so we didn’t have any protocols for pregnant women - but we had a pregnant teacher and we all looked out for her. There wasn’t a protocol about boys vs. girls - so they’re seen as equally capable, obviously.
Loath as I am to invoke hypotheticals, I think most people in an emergency situation, given the time to respond, would make sure that children, pregnant women, elderly people, and people with physical disabilities were evacuated and/or cared for first… then everyone else in order of health, ability, etc. (if no-one in this group was seriously hurt, of course).
That and for many couples, getting pregnant is certainly NOT as “much of an accomplishment as taking a dump.” Say that to a woman who has been trying to get pregnant for years, and see how much she agrees with you.
Well, there is where you are wrong, my dear Hama, for I am the type of parent who lets his children do whatever they want, whenever and wherever they want, without regard to other people, because Children are the Most Important Thing, and telling them “no” might damage their self-esteem. Bwa ha ha.
To those of you jumping on catsix for her “taking a dump” comment, she was not “comparing having a baby with taking a dump.” Her point – which I’m sure you understand perfectly well – is that getting pregnant takes no special skill or intelligence, and is not an “accomplishment.” A woman in a coma can get pregnant. As for couples who undergo years of fertility treatments and whatnot, that’s still their choice and hardly means society owes them something. I have more respect for people who adopt existing children than for people who must have a child with their own genes at any cost, which is monumentally egotistical. What, society will grind to a halt if your magnificent genetics aren’t passed on?
Have to agree with you there. Hubby and I don’t plan to have kids, but we’ve always agreed that if we ever do want them, we’ll adopt. (And none of that searching high-and-low and sitting for years on a waiting list to get a white baby-- we’d take the kid that no one else wants.)
In the other thread, it was pointed out that there are some localities that have signage directing commuters to give up seating preferentialy for elderly, handicapped and pregant women. So there are places where they are “entitled”. Would your opposition to such rules include going so far as not complying in those locales (I don’t think so, by the rest of your post).
Just want to point out that clearly some transit authorities do believe pregnant women are entitled.
No, it doesn’t make anyone entitled. However, as pregnancy CAN BE a debilitating condition, sometimes, that woman will need that seat more than you do.
Donovan, yes, that was the use of “breed” that I conjugated to “breeder” in my thread title.
To follow up on one specific avenue (since this is the thing that got me started here):
Huh.
Ok, well, let’s get a couple of assumptions out of the way here — when I speak of a pregnant woman, I’m not talking about someone who managed to fuck properly. I’m referring to a woman who’s embarking on the task of motherhood; she’s not just going to give birth, she’s going to raise a child. Maintaining a healthy pregnancy is the first critical task on that journey.
And when I say raise a child, I’m not talking about just keeping it alive. You think that all a mother does is feed the child and change its diapers? The orphanages in Romania that managed to reach only that far proved how destructive it is to reduce childcare to the bare physical necessities. Food, clothing and shelter aren’t enough, not even with tiny, pre-verbal, pre-logical infants.
So…you think that any moron can do a good job of raising a child? You think it’s, what, the skill equivalent of …ummm… huh… I’m having a hard time coming up with a metaphor for this one, since every occupation I can think of has dignity, has worth, can be done well (or not). The men who pick up my trash every week, for example; I rely on them, I value their time, they are punctual and professional and work hard. I wouldn’t consider them “morons”.
So it is your opinion that raising a child is the intellectual equivalent of falling out of bed?
If that’s the case, why is it so often done poorly?
Why are there hundreds of books and magazines, blogs and messageboards devoted to the subject?
Why do half of this country’s highly educated women (see my link in the OP) choose to stay at home to raise their children?
Why do people who put their children in daycare seek educated professionals to care for them (rather than finding a drooling idiot to stand in)?
And, as I stated previously, why did the half of the population who has traditionally been responsible for carrying out the task evolve as intellectual equivalents of the other half? If raising children could be done by any “moron”, wouldn’t it have made more sense for women to actually evolve as “breeders” who are incapable of doing anything else? Lots of men in other cultures spend lots of time trying to convince women that they are inferior “breeders”, but I thought we were past that here. Are you trying to turn back the clock?
I won’t go into elaborate descriptions of my days (and nights), my task-juggling, the challenges of their constant development, and the careful finesse required to convince two small children that they should comply with my wishes. I’ll spare you descriptions of my wild passion for them as well. I suspect it would be wasted.
Whaddaya talking? “Breeder” refers to Protectors who haven’t been exposed to Tree of Life, kind of like larvae but with reproductive apparatus. Shit, thought everybody knew that!
I was away from SDMB for several months, mostly because I had a very busy work schedule and I don’t like to post and run (it seems rude and not dialogical to me to jump in, post, then disappear). Since I’ve been back regularly, it’s seemed to me that the overall level of insults, name-calling, blaming, polarizing, and general disparagement of others’ points of view has been much higher than in previous years. This has been very sad for me.
How about doing it just because they’re exhausted, in pain, etc? What if instead of a pregnant person it were someone who were burdened with parcels or something like that? How about just being nice to someone for no reason? No, I’m sure you don’t do that. You sound like one of those people who encountered Ayn Rand at an age when your brain had not yet fully formed, causing it to remain frozen that way.
It’s more than a mere physical act, it’s sacrificing the rest of your free life to raise another person as best you can. When being an engineer requires giving something of yourself instead of working a slide rule to get as rich as you can, maybe it would be something worth elevating. And a professional athlete? Don’t make me laugh, please.
I’m not even going to hit that softball, suffice it to say that’s a true statement.
And you sound like one of those people who never read a word of Ayn Rand but heard from someone who heard from someone that Ayn Rand values “selfishness,” and you think you have an understanding of her philosophy. Objectivism does not preclude, forbid, or discourage voluntary acts of kindness/generosity/whatever. It merely does not accept the tenet that self-sacrifice is a duty one owes to any random stranger who demands it.
:smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:
Which STILL doesn’t mean that society at large or any particular person you arbitrarily decide to pick out of a crowd owes you something for a choice YOU made.
Are people under the impression that seats on the bus, handicapped parking, etc are some kind of reward that people earn only if they’re “worthy?” It doesn’t matter if a person made a choice to become pregnant, or engage in an activity that broke his or her leg-accomodations are based on NEED.
If a woman is farther along in her pregnancy, she might NEED that seat. It has nothing to do with whether or not she chose to be in that condition.
Jesus Christ, talk about social Darwinism. She chose to become pregnant, therefore, even if she is having backproblems and swollen ankles, tough shit, she should suck it up and bear it?
What next-little kid chose to ride his bike without training wheels for the first time and hits his head-oops, sorry, you chose that, we won’t take you to the doctor!
In the various childfree groups on LiveJournal, they take care to point out that the word “breeder” is not a generic term for those with children, but is used specifically for those parents whose involvement and/or interest in child-rearing appears to have ended at birth. This is why they also frequently use the term “PNB”, or “parent-not-breeder”.
I’m not defending the use of the term; just thought I’d point that out.