[QUOTE=Ukulele Ike]
Well, there is where you are wrong, my dear Hama, for I am the type of parent who lets his children do whatever they want, whenever and wherever they want, without regard to other people, because Children are the Most Important Thing, and telling them “no” might damage their self-esteem. Bwa ha ha.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but do you allow them to have Disney products in your house?
:: d & r ::
[QUOTE=Licentious Ectomorph]
Which STILL doesn’t mean that society at large or any particular person you arbitrarily decide to pick out of a crowd owes you something for a choice YOU made.
[/QUOTE]
Well, except that without people continuing to make that choice, there wouldn’t be a society. Choosing to raise a child (in the sense that Brain Wreck describes) ultimately benefits society.
Oh for the love of god, a pregnant woman is not worthy of any extra respect or admiration just because she got knocked up or decided she wanted to raise children. Yes, pregnancy is rough, physically arduous, a major sacrifice, etc etc. but it’s a SACRIFICE you WANTED and CHOSE to make. You knew all the ups and downs and decided that it’s what you WANT. But wanting extra accolades from society for physically sacrificing to accomplish your goal is a little too much.
If my goal were to run a marathon, and I ran and ran and ran for months and months (9 months, how about?), training strenuously towards this goal, would I be justified to ask random strangers for a seat on the subway coming home, exhausted and spent from my recent 40-mile session? Should I expect them to give it to me? Why does my working hard towards my goal not afford me a seat on the subway, also? Am I not temporarily stressing my body for my goal? Am I not temporarily as tired as that pregnant woman?
We as a society need to decide that having a child is NOT, in fact, AUTOMATICALLY a good thing. Having a child is just as self-serving a decision as my decision to run a marathon. If our country really NEEDED children, if women were sacrificing their bodies to save humanity, as it were, then I’ll be the first to treat every bloated woman like the queen she would be. But this is simply not the case.
It seems to me that fessie and her ilk don’t just want mothers to be “appreciated” more than anyone else, but treated as a separate, higher class for the decisions they make, and I think this is unreasonable. It’s not that pregnant women are “unworthy” of my seat, anyone but me is automatically “unworthy” of my seat except for extenuating circumstances! Of course people aren’t worthy of my seat. What a sense of entitlement!
It’s that sense of entitlement that I have contempt for, fessie, not pregnant women in themselves.
[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
If my goal were to run a marathon, and I ran and ran and ran for months and months (9 months, how about?), training strenuously towards this goal, would I be justified to ask random strangers for a seat on the subway coming home, exhausted and spent from my recent 40-mile session?
[/QUOTE]
I run marathons. The streets are lined with people who are cheering for you. There are thousands of volunteers handing out refreshments. Some of the nicest people are standing on their lawns handing out jolly ranchers or orange slices.
They don’t have to. They’re just good people. They could say, “Well, you chose to run a marathon. Sucks to be thirsty, huh?” But, as it turns out they aren’t dicks.
Just like people who get up for a pregnant lady on the bus. It’s just a nice thing to do if you aren’t a dick.
[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
Oh for the love of god, a pregnant woman is not worthy of any extra respect or admiration just because she got knocked up or decided she wanted to raise children.
[/quote]
Neither are they worthy of any extra derision or scorn because they have chosen to give a part of their life to someone else. And nobody is looking for accolades here, just a little compassion for one of the elemental experiences of the human condition, the one by which we all arrived here.
Ever stop to think that it’s not a sense of entitlement but a sense of shock at someone else’s lack of human compassion? Think of it like this… you’re out jogging on the jogging trail. Way up ahead you see a fat jogger suddenly fall to the ground in distress. He’s calling for help and everybody just keeps moving along, not even asking if he’s OK. Would this situation make you angry? How do you characterize this situation… is the man not getting the attention to which he is entitled, or are other joggers shirking a responsibility to help their fellow man? If the man gets upset by this, is it because of his sense of entitlement?
Our capacity for empathy and compassion is what separates us from animals. Some of us, anyway. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=catsix]
And started two Pit threads because they got opinions they didn’t like.
[/QUOTe]
Actually, you keep getting mentioned in the Pit because you’re a bitch.
Other people seem able to raise controversial opinions without being called out as rude and stupid. It isn’t the answer, it’s you.
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker]
I run marathons. The streets are lined with people who are cheering for you. There are thousands of volunteers handing out refreshments. Some of the nicest people are standing on their lawns handing out jolly ranchers or orange slices.
They don’t have to. They’re just good people. They could say, “Well, you chose to run a marathon. Sucks to be thirsty, huh?” But, as it turns out they aren’t dicks.
Just like people who get up for a pregnant lady on the bus. It’s just a nice thing to do if you aren’t a dick.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the one day I’m running the marathon, it’s nice for people to offer to help. But a pregnant woman needing help on the bus is like me wanting those drinks and orange slices, not on my one day of the race, but on every run, on a typical day, of a 3-month-straight training session. Do I expect my neighbors to slice me oranges every morning? No. Should pregnant women expect seats on the bus every evening? No. It’s a nice thing to do if you aren’t a dick, but the world is full of women who want to spit out babies. When we start lining up on the streets to give water to every runner, out of the kindness of our hearts, and runners start to feel entitled to it, that’s a little too much adoration of the running world. Ditto for the pregnant world.
[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
Oh for the love of god, a pregnant woman is not worthy of any extra respect or admiration just because she got knocked up or decided she wanted to raise children. Yes, pregnancy is rough, physically arduous, a major sacrifice, etc etc. but it’s a SACRIFICE you WANTED and CHOSE to make. You knew all the ups and downs and decided that it’s what you WANT. But wanting extra accolades from society for physically sacrificing to accomplish your goal is a little too much.
[/QUOTE]
… … … You know, it’s not like they’re asking for parades here. Does it mean that much to you to stand up on the subway for a little while? How is that an extra accolade from society?
How is running a marathon self-serving? Just because it’s a personal goal that isn’t going to save all of mankind… There is nothing wrong with doing something that is for you. And yes, if I saw you on the subway, and you were obviously wiped out and sweaty and shaky, I would let you have my seat. Whatever you were doing, whether it was your choice or not, you were obviously working hard at it, and I respect that.
I just… I’m not understanding this attachment that people have to their seats. There is no merit scale for seats on the subway. It’s about need. And if you look like you need it more than I do, I’m going to let you have my seat. And if you don’t want it, then just say “Thanks, but I’m good where I am.” It doesn’t have to be this big freaking deal.
Also, I have the feeling that some people on this thread are pointing out how much work goes into raising children not to set themselves above anyone else, but to counteract the comments about how getting “knocked up” doesn’t make you special and a woman in a coma can get pregnant and having children is selfish anyway because it’s not like American needs children and God knows, a woman with such a huge sense of entitlement is going to wind up being a lousy parent anyway. If someone were describing my life’s choice in those terms, I’d get pretty defensive too, and I’d go into great detail about how hard I work and how much intelligence it takes. Not to prove that I’m better than anyone else, but to prove that I am at least as good as anyone else. There’s a hell of a lot of hostility in this thread, if you hadn’t noticed. Do you really think their defensiveness is that out of line?
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
Think of it like this… you’re out jogging on the jogging trail. Way up ahead you see a fat jogger suddenly fall to the ground in distress. He’s calling for help and everybody just keeps moving along, not even asking if he’s OK. Would this situation make you angry?
[/QUOTE]
If it happened every morning, or even every week, I’d be pissed off! That’s called a freak accident, an emergency. Pregnancy is not a freak accident, an emergency, or a rare condition, and I am not going to treat it as such.
Yeah, because I don’t think of every pregnant ditz out there as the virgin mary, I am no better than an animal. I don’t give my lunches away to the homeless, either, even though I can easily go buy another sandwich. Do you? Where’s your compassion?
There’s already an existing coupla threads to debate the seat entitlement issue, this one was started just to address the term “breeder” and how sick some folks are of it being used negatively.
So far it seems we’ve got a few connotations:
Did I miss any?
This analogy would be more apt if, once you committed to a particular race, you were committed for a very extended period of time – say, nine months – didn’t really have the option of dropping out, and you gained weight as you went.
Then if I see you running past me every day, morning and evening, run run run, and I’m thinking “that poor bastard has to run like that for four more months,” am I going to hand you a cup of water, which I happen to have handy and which is really no skin of my nose to give you? Yes, I am. Are you entitled to it? No. Do you deserve your misery? Who cares? I’m not going to condition my actions on some time-consuming, ultimately futile analysis of what some person deserves or is entitled to; I don’t have that kind of time. You’re miserable and I can make your life easier with little effort, so I will, and then I’ll move on. The absorbing analysis and justification for not doing so seems to me far more boring then just practicing common courtesy in the first place.
Shoot, I’ve been to quite a few footraces - you betcher ass I’d give you my seat.
I’d give you the whole frickin’ row - you people reek!
I must be just wretchedly inconsistent in my philosophical expression of courtesy. I don’t even consider the inherent worthiness of the recipient of my minor acts of kindness. I guess if someone was intentionally nasty in my presence it might make it unlikely that I would offer a seat, hold a door, wish them well, or pay the extra two cents so they wouldn’t need to break a twenty. But I don’t examine their conduct to ascertain if they are worthy of common courtesy.
It ain’t like I am investing my life in them. I just have the habit, really. My mother taught me that habit. It was a long time ago, but I am pretty sure she never mentioned what class of people deserved it, and what class of people didn’t. I called any woman older than me mam, and any man sir until there got to be so few of them that it was obvious that habit was no longer applicable. I have grown surprisingly unsurprised by the converse situation, in the last few years, although it was an adjustment that went well beyond my forties. The replacement to the mam/older dichotomy has been to just call everyone mam, or sir. It’s easier. Now, I suppose that cheapens the honor of my honorific, but I can suffer the loss somehow.
But mostly, I feel . . . Hell, it’s just a frickin seat on a bus! Take it! Be an asshole, if you like. Whatever. Or, camp out on it like it was your frickin’ homestead! Defend it from the unworthy hoards! Just don’t expect me to find it anything other than hilarious that you invest your emotions in trivia like that.
It costs me absolutely noting to be nice to people who do not deserve to be treated nicely, if there are such people. Hell, if there are, they will probably really appreciate it, what with all the Courtesy Justice League shoving them aside on account of their unworthiness. And it’s still free, for me. Take that, you breeder. Sit the fuck down, and for god’s sake, don’t be grateful.
Tris
This is my feeling, too. It just seems like so much work, to be always suspicious, always studying your fellow humans for ulterior motives, to be consciously refusing to give them the satisfaction of putting one over on you. I mean, I can totally understand the “state-of-nature” boor who doesn’t give up the seat because he or she was raised by wolves and the thought literally never crossed their uncivilized mind, but to sit on your ass as some sort of philosophical statement regarding the presumed nefariousness of someone who only seems to need the seat worse then you – Jeez, that sounds tiresome, in every sense of the word.
I agree that giving up your seat to a pregnant woman is a nice and/or courteous thing to do. What I disagree with is the moral imperative to do so, the posters in IMHO who would be “sickened” if I did not give up my seat, the insistence of the OP that being pregnant is a condition that demands some extra consideration or respect.
And I do use “breeder” as a derogative, because I don’t like the hubris of the type of people who push out child after child for no discernible reason. It’s used in my circles as a term referring to women with a whole brood of babies, a whole mess of screaming faces and limbs, dragged through public spaces in an orgy of parental mismanagement and tired apathy. One pregnant woman or a capable mother with a well-behaved child or two is not a “breeder”. YMMV.
You label them “breeders” because you cannot discern their underlying reasons for having children, and then you accuse them of hubris?
This is an example of one of them pot-kettle thingies.
[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
I agree that giving up your seat to a pregnant woman is a nice and/or courteous thing to do. What I disagree with is the moral imperative to do so, the posters in IMHO who would be “sickened” if I did not give up my seat, the insistence of the OP that being pregnant is a condition that demands some extra consideration or respect.
And I do use “breeder” as a derogative, because I don’t like the hubris of the type of people who push out child after child for no discernible reason. It’s used in my circles as a term referring to women with a whole brood of babies, a whole mess of screaming faces and limbs, dragged through public spaces in an orgy of parental mismanagement and tired apathy. One pregnant woman or a capable mother with a well-behaved child or two is not a “breeder”. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]
Again, it’s not the pregnancy itself that gets more respect-it’s the fact that pregnancy can often be very uncomfortable and debillitating, therefore, a heavily pregnant woman is going to NEED that seat more than you. “Need.” Not “deserve”, or “earn”, or “entitled to”. Just like, as I pointed out, handicapped parking permits are not awarded on merit, but on need.
Yes, we understand that “any moron” can breed-Britney Spears and Kevin Federline are a prime example. That being said, if I encountered Spears on the bus, I’d offer her my seat, because it’s the right thing to do. Because I was raised to be polite and to treat other people the way I want to be treated.
When did manners become so out of fashion?
Hey, what are they doing needing seats on the bus anyway? You can’t strap a child safety seat into a bus seat, right? Damn breeders oughta be worrying about affording cars before they go having kids they can’t afford! :mad:
I keed, I keed!
First, let me start by saying that I would always offer a seat to a visibly pregnant woman on a bus or train if I noticed her. Second, let me say that I have the greatest respect in the world for people who try like crazy to be good parents, and the recognition of the incredible amount of hard work, expense, and general self-sacrifice necessary to be a good parent was the primary reason why I chose not to have children.
But to assume these qualities in a person whose belly is swelling and therefore accord her some degree of special respect? No. Consideration? Absolutely. From what I understand, it’s very hard on the back to carry that extra weight in front, and so, unless I had a compelling reason not to offer my seat (such as right now, when standing for any length of time is bringing on dizzy spells - but I’d probably ask my neighbor if s/he could offer a seat, explaining why I couldn’t easily do so myself), I would always offer my seat to a pregnant woman.
But the fact of being pregnant does not carry with it the fact of then making the sacrifices and doing the work to be a good parent. There are plenty of people out there who are lousy parents, half of whom were all pregnant at least once. There is nothing about the fact of pregnancy in and of itself that merits any special respect whatsoever. You may be busting your ass with plans and intents to be the best parent in the world. You may even carry those plans out, and even succeed in doing so (the two are not the same - there are parents out there who try very hard and succeed only in being poor parents). Then again, you could simply be knocked up.
I don’t owe a pregnant person or even a good parent one damned thing. S/he didn’t do it for me, or for the world; s/he did it because s/he wanted children or because s/he was too thoughtless or ignorant or unlucky to prevent a pregnancy. The act of becoming and being pregnant demonstrates no merit whatsoever. It also demonstrates no lack of merit; it is simply a fact.
I respect good parents because they’re doing a difficult job well - one that I would be unwilling to attempt myself. I even try to respect bad parents who are trying to do a good job, although their failures in that respect may be so annoying that I don’t manage to actually achieve that respect. But don’t try to bestow the merits of being a good parent on someone who is simply pregnant.
Again, I will offer a pregnant any courtesy I am able to, just as I will offer that courtesy to anyone else who appears to be in greater need than I. But in this thread, it has been suggested by some that pregnancy itself should be accorded the extra respect and/or gratitude and/or admiration accorded a good parent. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way for me. A person who is pregnant has demonstrated her fertility, nothing more, nothing less. And while I may have great respect and admiration for a good parent, I have no gratitude. S/he has not done it in order to serve the world.
Btw, ignore catsix, or at least her choice of words. She’s actually fairly sensible (her points, when isolated from their phrasing, are usually not bad and are sometimes remarkable astute and/or sensible), she’s quite bright, and probably quite a nice person in real life, but she seems to take enormous pleasure in being thoroughly obnoxious or abrasive much of her time on the message board. She will say that she is simply being frank (and she certainly is that - **catsix ** will never stab someone in the back!), because she doesn’t care what we think of her, but it certainly appears to this observer that she goes out of her way to be insulting at times. There are a few other posters running around like that - Excalibre comes to mind. You just have to accept that their style ranges from neutral to seriously obnoxious, or ignore them entirely - which would be a pity, because they both have good things to say if you can get past the abrasiveness.
I teach breeders.
Most contributing to this board have the education and the forethought to limit family size by conscious decision. Assuming that the breeders some are referring to have your resources, your education, and your IQ is a mistake.
I am in charge of casework for 3 teenage mothers in federal custody right now. One of them just turned 18 and has earned her LPN even though her IQ is somewhere around 90. She is not with the father of either of her loud and unruly children and she is not on birth control because “it makes her sick”. She has health insurance and has access to all the resources she needs to limit her family. She probably won’t. But she does take care of our mothers, fathers, and grandparents at a nursing home part time.
Practicing snobbishness and classism in her presence does no good; any negative comments about her parenting skills results in defensive posture and near violence. But when someone is nice to her, she admits that she has regrets and asks for help and advice.
She really just didn’t know any better than to breed. She doesn’t know how to teach her children to behave because she is a child herself… who was never taught to behave. And in the US everyone who earns a paycheck is responsible for feeding and clothing her children. You know what that makes those pesky children? Ours.