Sick of This "Breeder" Crap

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=fessie]
Ok, well, let’s get a couple of assumptions out of the way here — when I speak of a pregnant woman, I’m not talking about someone who managed to fuck properly. I’m referring to a woman who’s embarking on the task of motherhood; she’s not just going to give birth, she’s going to raise a child. Maintaining a healthy pregnancy is the first critical task on that journey.
[/QUOTE]

If we’re talking some random pregnant woman, like one on a bus, there’s no way of knowing any of this. You’re projecting.

Of course, projecting kind, respectful things is a hell of a lot better than projecting vicious, disrespectful things, and I would give up my seat regardless. But chances are, what, 50/50 that the random pregnant woman is going to be a terrible parent?

I’ll respect good parents, disrespect bad ones, give my seat to whomever might need it, and sleep very well at night.

102

Should have added a postscript to that: I truly dislike my job. I rarely make progress with my wards. They frustrate me to no end.

Some people are willfully ignorant and I join you in my (silent) disdain for them. They will still get my seat on the train; but I don’t have to approve of them in order to do that.

But most people aren’t purposefully using up our resources. They are just limited.

103

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
But chances are, what, 50/50 that the random pregnant woman is going to be a terrible parent?
[/QUOTE]

Unless your definition of “Terrible” is substantially different than what most people use, well, no, it isn’t 50/50. Most parents do at least a reasonable job raising their kids. I mean, let’s not let the Internet nihilism get the best of us here.

104

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Unless your definition of “Terrible” is substantially different than what most people use, well, no, it isn’t 50/50. Most parents do at least a reasonable job raising their kids. I mean, let’s not let the Internet nihilism get the best of us here.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you’re probably right. But I think my point is still valid–I’m not going to assume that any random pregnant woman is anything but pregnant. There’s nothing that says she’s going to be a parent at all, let alone a good one, so yes, I’ll give her my seat because she needs it more than I do (lord knows I don’t need to sit around more than I already do), but for more than common decency, courtesy, and goodwill, she’s got to do something beyond “be pregnant.”

105

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
I am in charge of casework for 3 teenage mothers in federal custody right now. One of them just turned 18 and has earned her LPN even though her IQ is somewhere around 90.
[/QUOTE]

Forgetting about the fact that IQ tests tell very little about a person other than how they do on IQ tests for a moment, the average IQ is 100. The standard deviation is 15. The population’s IQ is normally distributed which means that 66.6% of people will score between 85 and 115 which means that your new nurse is of average intelligence. Not sure why you included that bit as it is, well, typical. Unless you meant she has a 60 IQ or something.

Sorry, being a pendant.

starfishfillet, I sorely hope that you are a troll. The world has enough hate-filled jackasses as is.

106

[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
I agree that giving up your seat to a pregnant woman is a nice and/or courteous thing to do. What I disagree with is the moral imperative to do so, the posters in IMHO who would be “sickened” if I did not give up my seat, the insistence of the OP that being pregnant is a condition that demands some extra consideration or respect.

And I do use “breeder” as a derogative, because I don’t like the hubris of the type of people who push out child after child for no discernible reason. It’s used in my circles as a term referring to women with a whole brood of babies, a whole mess of screaming faces and limbs, dragged through public spaces in an orgy of parental mismanagement and tired apathy. One pregnant woman or a capable mother with a well-behaved child or two is not a “breeder”. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I notice your railing of breeders seem to be focused on women. I realize pregancy is the topic of discussion, but I think women sometimes get the brunt end of the stick when it comes to blaming parents.

IMHO, although a woman who has lots of children with no means of support is sickening, the man who “sows his seed” in many places and does not have the ability to raise them is just as bad, and in some ways worse, because he does not bear any responsibility.

My husband told me a story once when he was a case manager. A young man came in his office to add his children to the visiting list and the “mother of child”. I can’t remember exactly how many, but I think it was 11 and 7 different mothers. He was 20 years old. He wore it like a badge of honor. To add insult to injury, every one of the children had extremely similar names. It was almost like a game to him. All the boys were named after him and the girls had names like (not the real ones, but a similar pattern)

Tami, bami, sami, fami, yami, rami, thami etc…

It was sickening.

Hubby said that in all his career, he has never struck one of his wards. He has had shit thrown at him, piss thrown at him, he was spit on, he had difficult cell extractions where his vision was blinded by pepper spray and he had to groundfight against a man covered in feces (to make him more slick), BUT, he said out of all of these people he has had to deal with, that young, arrogant piece of irresponsible shit was the one he would have loved to hit.

107

[QUOTE=Wolfian]

starfishfillet, I sorely hope that you are a troll. The world has enough hate-filled jackasses as is.
[/QUOTE]

Look, I’m just sick of the lack of responsibility this society seems to condone when it comes to pregnancy, up to and including the automatic respect people in this thread want to bestow upon any openlegged dumbass who happens to find herself pregnant. People should NOT be blanketly encouraged to have babies. Bad parenting is an epidemic and this congratulatory attitude towards all pregnancies is just fuel for the fire, IMHO.

I respect and love PARENTS. I will never love or respect BREEDERS. The boy in that last example is a breeder, and that’s why the term exists. I have the same disrespect for the man who does as much although, obviously, they are less easy to recognize on sight.

108

[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
I respect and love PARENTS. I will never love or respect BREEDERS. The boy in that last example is a breeder, and that’s why the term exists. I have the same disrespect for the man who does as much although, obviously, they are less easy to recognize on sight.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, that makes slightly more sense. I thought you were railing against all people who dared to get pregnant for whatever reason. Still, this dividing of people into groups and this apparent ability to be able to recognize “those people” on sight… You’re treading on dangerous Godwin-filled ground here.

109

[QUOTE=Wolfian]
Sorry, being a pendant.
[/QUOTE]

I hate to leave you hanging like that. I think the word you’re looking for is “pedant”. :wink:

110

Happily childfree person weighing in, here.

I also really dislike the feminist spin on stay-at-home moms. You guys aren’t growing as people because you aren’t nine-to-fiveing it? Please. The whole point behind feminism, in my little old opinion, is that you have choice. And if you choose to stay at home, you have most certainly exercised your modern woman’s right to choose.

And if you didn’t have the babies, there would be no kids to grow up and whine about how much you demean yourselves by submitting to the “Woman’s Place” in the home, how horrible you are for occasionally hating your kids, and how self-serving you are for wanting to sit down on the bus when you’re carrying around 30-odd pounds of human parasite and have been for the last several months.

Point of minirant: I’m sure glad you’re doing it; I respect you for it; I’m glad it ain’t me.

111

The traditional feminist point of view has never been about demeaning motherhood – it’s about being able to make choices and respecting those choices whether they are to work outside of the home, to work fulltime as a mother or to combine the two. We do recognize motherhood as work and very important work!

I’m sorry that I just couldn’t read all of this thread without choking up so I stopped. More than anything in the world I wanted to have a child. And I didn’t. I still have my diary where I wrote about holding a baby for the first time when I was twelve. Those feelings have never gone away.

Some mothers are incredible and some are not, but I see no point in dehumanizing them or conception and birth. Calling them “breeders” is just more hate language that tells me nothing about them except that they are women who have had babies. It’s a way of negating something decent.

I envy those of you who can bear children. I can’t imagine feeling another human being moving inside of you. I can’t imagine the mystery of bringing another human being into the world through your own body.

112

[QUOTE=Zoe]
I envy those of you who can bear children. I can’t imagine feeling another human being moving inside of you. I can’t imagine the mystery of bringing another human being into the world through your own body.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t have children either, and see things from a different view from yours entirely (I also can’t adopt due to my adopted-at-1-year husband’s wishes.) And the arguments in here of ‘BUT I CHOSE TO GIVE UP A PART OF MY LIFE FOR A LITTLE PERSON!!’ is horrible. Ask a million pregnant women why they’ve chosen to start having children, how the heck many of them will say that?! You don’t have kids because you want to altruistically give up your life to help sustain society! You have kids because you either want kids (for whatever reason, right or wrong) or because you got knocked up. Don’t tell me you are some sort of saint who had kids specifically to improve society as I’ll call bullshit.

Think yourselves DAMN LUCKY that you could have kids in the first place. Appreciate them, care for them, enjoy their company, and stop bitching about how childfree people refer to you. Does it matter what I call you, really? Who won, here? Sure as hell wasn’t me. I’ve got bigger problems to worry about than What People Call Me When They Want To Be Mean.

DISCLAIMER: I’m exactly the sort of engratiating smiley wet rag who’ll give up their bus seat for someone with conjuntivitus. I’ll ALWAYS give up my bus seat for a pregnant woman, regardless to the fact that my hormonal problems that cause my infertility also mean my ankles are as bad as theirs and I’m probably carrying as much weight in my belly/boobs as them. But I don’t respect anyone for having children or for making that choice. I respect good parenting, when I see it (not often). I respect kids, though. Kids are great. I don’t respect pregnant women for making a choice for themselves as they will benefit most from it. If I live to 70+, I’ll benefit from it too, but the choice to provide my own carers was taken from me.

Hell yeah this post is angry. My heart is beating through my chest at this thread so I can’t say I expect this to be more than a furious rant. Apologies if it doesn’t make much sense, but that’s pretty much how I feel about the OP and half the replies in here.

113

[QUOTE=DoctorJ]
In the various childfree groups on LiveJournal, they take care to point out that the word “breeder” is not a generic term for those with children, but is used specifically for those parents whose involvement and/or interest in child-rearing appears to have ended at birth. This is why they also frequently use the term “PNB”, or “parent-not-breeder”.

I’m not defending the use of the term; just thought I’d point that out.
[/QUOTE]

It’s also used for people who the user of the term thinks procreate too often. Per the UrbanDictionary definition.

114

[QUOTE=starfishfillet]
Look, I’m just sick of the lack of responsibility this society seems to condone when it comes to pregnancy, up to and including the automatic respect people in this thread want to bestow upon any openlegged dumbass who happens to find herself pregnant. People should NOT be blanketly encouraged to have babies. Bad parenting is an epidemic and this congratulatory attitude towards all pregnancies is just fuel for the fire, IMHO.

I respect and love PARENTS. I will never love or respect BREEDERS. The boy in that last example is a breeder, and that’s why the term exists. I have the same disrespect for the man who does as much although, obviously, they are less easy to recognize on sight.
[/QUOTE]

What the fuck does this have to do with the conversation at hand?

115

[QUOTE=Zoe]
The traditional feminist point of view has never been about demeaning motherhood – it’s about being able to make choices and respecting those choices whether they are to work outside of the home, to work fulltime as a mother or to combine the two. We do recognize motherhood as work and very important work!
[/QUOTE]

That’s what I always thought, too (it only makes sense), which is why I specifically included the second link in my OP, from the professor who’s busy haranguing SAHMs. Particularly the educated ones. It’s infuriating to run into crap like that.

I’m sorry that life hasn’t offered you the opportunity to experience motherhood firsthand. There’s nothing the least bit fair about any of this.

Also, to amijane, part of my aim here is to challenge the caricature of motherhood that is prevalent at the Dope. I’m not bitching about my kids — I’m fighting ignorance.

From a glance around here, it would seem that I spend my days taking screaming kids into restaurants and running other people off the sidewalk with my massive stroller.

The reality is a much more interesting, intricate dance, a give-and-take with little people - punctuated with a lot of dirty diapers and peanut butter crackers. Maybe I haven’t described the rest of my point all that well; I’ll have to give it some thought and return when my kids settle down.

starfishYes, I know there are terrible mothers and parents in the world. My MIL was a social worker in Child Protective Services for 20+ years, and my sister a therapist at an inpatient facility for teens. You want stories? I’ve got stories. That’s not the point. If you choose to view all of humanity through shit-colored glasses, that’s up to you. And BTW, you sound exactly like my MIL, whose company no one cares to keep.

116

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
It’s also used for people who the user of the term thinks procreate too often. Per the UrbanDictionary definition.
[/QUOTE]

It’s off topic, but I don’t think you can place even the slightest iota of trust in anything you find in UrbanDictionary. Every idiot who can turn on a PC will enter definitions all willy-nilly for any number of words. “Breeder” includews 17 entires with 20 or more definitions, some wildly different from others, at least one of them openly racist, few of them written clearly, and including editorializing and stupidity on a grand scale.

117

[QUOTE=starfishfillet]

I respect and love PARENTS. I will never love or respect BREEDERS. The boy in that last example is a breeder, and that’s why the term exists. I have the same disrespect for the man who does as much although, obviously, they are less easy to recognize on sight.
[/QUOTE]

And their irresponsibility and lack of morals is evident on a bus? How on earth can you tell who is the “playuh” and who is the “breeder” and who is truly a person in need?

Would I had your Xray vision…

Scum with values of an alley cat or Virgin Mary–either pregnant woman (and all in between) get my seat on the bus.
Bet the mothers of those who deplore giving up seats would be ashamed of the rudeness displayed here–unless she was a breeder, of course. :rolleyes:

118

[QUOTE=fessie]
Maybe I haven’t described the rest of my point all that well; I’ll have to give it some thought and return when my kids settle down.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, for me you certainly did, it’s just this is part of a hugely emotive subject for me. You know the feeling when you know you posted in haste? When you wince on opening a thread knowing you spewed your guts all over a thread earlier that day? That was me just now.

Everyone has a right to be annoyed by being called a snotty name. However, sometimes I think it’s a good idea to look at the bigger picture - people who are calling you ‘breeder’ are doing so out of ignorance of the lifestyle you enjoy with your children, the early morning cuddles, the wanting to scoop the little boogers up and breathe them in, all the good stuff and bad… you get to have all the joys (and exhaustion!) of parenthood and they simply don’t understand what they’re missing out on. So pft, does it truly matter what they call you? They know better, that they made the right choice. But you know better too, right?

However, I do understand why it would nark the poop outta you. It would me, too.

119

amijane -I think you’re on to something and perhaps those who use this term to express their contempt are actually referring to an inner anger. IANAT, but such hostility projected onto someone else rarely has a benign cause.

Just a though.

120

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Bet the mothers of those who deplore giving up seats would be ashamed of the rudeness displayed here–unless she was a breeder, of course. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

This might be slightly out-of-bounds, but I am making comments based on something freely offered in another thread:

**Catsix ** responded to a comment about how “Mother’s Day must’ve been a real hoot in your house growing up” by posting that here mother, in fact, (vehemently?) discouraged celebrating the holiday at all when catsix was growing up. If I understood correctly, there were no Mother’s Day cards or gifts in the household.

This response made me think that there’s a gigantic disconnect between catsix’s upbringing those of myself and most all that I know personally. And then I started trying to mentally fill in gaps despite lack of evidence: for instance, some parents resent having ever had children. Was catsix’s mother like that? What else was different about her early years when compared to my (our) own? Why do we value what we value and think the way we do about the world around us?

Perhaps there’s no one “normal” when it comes to formative experiences … but there is such a thing as “typical, commonplace”. And I can read this thread and see that it’s difficult to foster understanding between people who come from highly-divergent sociological worlds.