So I like this girl

OK, not like-like, you know, in the playground sense of the word, because I’d like to think I’ve outgrown that. It’s something similar, though. Just not exactly the same.

Gone are the days of the jitters, the shakes, the butterflies, the agony. In their place there is now a different, more tempered kind of longing. I can literally feel the way I’m keeping myself from falling out-and-out in love with her, how these airbrushed, half-dreamt images and ideas we always manage to concoct about the other person are not as idyllic, not as perfectly warm as they used to be. If I were to somehow admit to myself that yes, this woman is the most gorgeous creature you’ve ever seen, and she in all probability is a better person than you are (mis)leading yourself to believe, the dam would burst and we’d be headed for love letter country. In my case, that’s a pretty unwholesomely sappy place to be, particularly if you don’t happen to be in love with me. So this cathectic temperance can probably be described as a needed safety net, to guard myself and others against really, really embarrassing situations (we’re talking Poetry here. Yes, with a capital P. Draw your own conclusions).

But then, out of left field and moving at a brisk trot towards the diamond comes another thought, one that doesn’t exactly rate highly on the whole “rationality” meter but more than makes up for it by ding-ding-dinging the bell on top of the “intensity” meter, winning a large stuffed animal and eating it in 4 seconds flat. Broken down into its simplest form, it boils down to this: I know this is the woman I’m going to be with for the rest of my life. I just know it. There’s no wishful thinking involved (because the desire as such hasn’t gotten to a level where I’d even consider spending the rest of my life with her a positive option), just a kind of half-remembered, vaguely familiar feeling that flares up in me when I picture her face. I haven’t even decided whether I’m in love with her (though my repression of desire kinda points to an imminent “yes” answer in that category, Bob), and yet here comes this one thought, earnestly throwing itself into the headquarters of Common Sense & Logic Inc., pulling down its pants, and shitting all over the floor.

It might sound creepy to you. It sounds creepy to me, when I think of it from a certain perspective. It feels kind of creepy too, like I don’t know whether I’m being afforded some crazy mystical insight or whether I’m just imagining things (or, heaven forfend, falling prey to Wishful Thinking v2.0, the kind that sneaks through all those firewalls o’ repression). All I know is it’s kinda funny. I’m not taking it too seriously, but the feeling is just strong enough that I’ve given it second and third and fourth thoughts. Am I in love? Haven’t a clue. All I have is a weird feeling in my gut and a growing collection of cheesy-but-endearingly-earnest poetry in my head.

Then there is, of course, always the chance that this whole “love” thing’s happening just the way it always has, only now I’ve finally learned that you have to just ease back at first, kinda let things happen, not push it too hard, not build up major expectations, so on and so forth. Be cool, excellent and absent, as per the Tao of Steve. Relax and just let things happen. Yeah, that’s probably what’s going on. I’m using my years of experience with failure and loss
as they
pale like leaves from the lotus
when t

What the fuck?

Oh dear. Here we go.

[hides head in hands, waits for dam to burst]

I was going to post a long piece of advice, but I figure I’ll wait for MandaJO to post and then just agree with her, pretending I knew that all along.

What we don’t as yet know is how well you know this woman.

If you know her socially, and have some idea that your feelings might be reciprocated, I’d say go with the poetry, what’s the worst that could happen?
If you know her socially, but she hasn’t as yet expressed an interest, I’d say give her a chance to, before throwing poems at her.
If you don’t know her socially, I’d say, please familiarize yourself with anti-stalking legislation, and try not to shoot any Presidents.

No, no, no! You’re taking the wrong approach! First of all, I’d toss all of your “tame” feelings of longing and your idealistic version of her that really doesn’t exist and repress them as much as possible. You’re entering a superficial game and you need your wits in charge rather than your emotions.

Secondly, convince yourself that this is not going to work out. That way, you’re covered when it doesn’t (because it probably won’t. How do I know? Because most of the time, it doesn’t).

Third, DO NOT ACT TOO INTERESTED!!! You will surely shoot yourself in the foot. Once she knows that you’re crazy about her, the thrill of the hunt is over and she’ll move on to some guy that treats her like shit. In fact, almost act disinterested. It’s the only way.

Third, make sure that she thinks you have alot of money, and act “cool” at all times; you may think that she’ll think you are “cute” if you kind of act dorky around her or tell bad jokes, and she may laugh, but then she’ll dump your ass. Hopefully you drive a nice vehicle; if you don’t, you don’t stand a chance.

I could tell from your post that you have not yet dated this woman, or else these pleasant emotions you expressed would be tainted with some issues. Every time I start seeing a woman, I would feel how you do about the girl; I’d feel like I know what I’m doing and I’m in control and that this is the one and isn’t this going to be great, and then I’d make any of the mistakes that I warned you about above. I’d act too interested and then it was done. However, I’m in the process of following my own advice with a new girl, and it’s working so far. Not that I expect it to last . . .

A pessimist! That is what you all think of me! How about a realist. It’s a game and you have to learn how to play if you’re going to win. After you play it for 3 - 6 months, then you can feel somewhat confident in the relationship and can relax a little. Until then, you’ve got to play the game. What women want and what they say they want are two different things.

Don’t listen to the women who will say that I’m wrong! This is what you must do!

No, no, no! You’re taking the wrong approach! First of all, I’d toss all of your “tame” feelings of longing and your idealistic version of her that really doesn’t exist and repress them as much as possible. You’re entering a superficial game and you need your wits in charge rather than your emotions.

Secondly, convince yourself that this is not going to work out. That way, you’re covered when it doesn’t (because it probably won’t. How do I know? Because most of the time, it doesn’t).

Third, DO NOT ACT TOO INTERESTED!!! You will surely shoot yourself in the foot. Once she knows that you’re crazy about her, the thrill of the hunt is over and she’ll move on to some guy that treats her like shit. In fact, almost act disinterested. It’s the only way.

Third, make sure that she thinks you have alot of money, and act “cool” at all times; you may think that she’ll think you are “cute” if you kind of act dorky around her or tell bad jokes, and she may laugh, but then she’ll dump your ass. Hopefully you drive a nice vehicle; if you don’t, you don’t stand a chance.

I could tell from your post that you have not yet dated this woman, or else these pleasant emotions you expressed would be tainted with some issues. Every time I start seeing a woman, I would feel how you do about the girl; I’d feel like I know what I’m doing and I’m in control and that this is the one and isn’t this going to be great, and then I’d make any of the mistakes that I warned you about above. I’d act too interested and then it was done. However, I’m in the process of following my own advice with a new girl, and it’s working so far. Not that I expect it to last . . .

A pessimist! That is what you all think of me! How about a realist. It’s a game and you have to learn how to play if you’re going to win. After you play it for 3 - 6 months, then you can feel somewhat confident in the relationship and can relax a little. Until then, you’ve got to play the game. What women want and what they say they want are two different things.

Don’t listen to the women who will say that I’m wrong! This is what you must do!

Do you have any ideas about how she is feeling about you?

When I met my man, I was the one holding back and being wary when deep down, like you, I had this very clear feeling that this was the person I was going to spend the rest of my days with.

But he was already head over heels and we spent a lot of time talking about these things.

So give us some more info and I am sure we can be more constructive!

Fnoof–being the poster-child for horrid relationships the past ten years running, I have absolutely zero advice to offer you about this woman. I just wanted to say that I think you write beautifully, and if things don’t work out with your lady love, I’m available. :wink:

[sub]OK–a little advice. Tomorrow’s Valentine’s Day. Give her a tulip and ask her out. You only live once, right?[/sub]

rhinostylee, that is one of the most shallow posts I’ve ever seen. Are you still in high school? Are you of the opinion that if you haven’t gotten a woman in bed by the third date that she’s not worth your time?

Don’t go overboard at first, but don’t deliberately act like a jerk, either. That’s probably 90% of it.

Shoot, someone’s discovered my m.o.

Fnoonf, I can tell from your OP that you’re a thoughtful and mature individual. I, for one, don’t think you really need any advice. Thank you for sharing with us.

whiterabbit is right. rhinostylee is wrong, and not just here. He’s been spreading this juvenile nonsense around lately.

Yes, my post was shallow. Admittedly shallow. But I’ve found that pursuing women is shallow business. I know that this does not apply to all women, but I believe that it applies to the majority.

Ideally, I would like to have a meaningful relationship that had nothing to do with materialistic and superficial motives. But I think that is extremely rare, or at least it is at the beginning of a relationship. I speak from experience! Many women are looking for some status or money as a part of relationship. There’s no point in denying the truth!

We all do it! Would you date a person who is uglier than sin? Of course not! So there you have it, you are also materialistic. You can’t deny that the physical attraction must be there. Many people are physically attracted to people with money and status. I think that my previous advice was dead on.

You can believe in your story books, or you can be realistic. I choose to be realistic. A beautiful woman can get any guy she wants, so why should she choose you? That’s why you have to make your case. You have to have it all, or else she’ll move on.

As far as whether or not a girl will have sex within the first three dates and if it’s worth my time, that all depends on how cool/good looking the girl is. It’s a direct relationship . . . the better looking/cooler the girl, the longer I’m willing to wait.

We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl. Er, guy.

I WOULD date somebody who seemed ugly at first; you never know what might happen. Maybe that opinion would change. What if you passed up The One just because she was too ugly for you to consider?

And should you continue thinking of dating in these terms, I can promise you that the beautiful women won’t pick you!

The fact that you say you are willing to date an ugly person does not prove anything. Maybe in theory you think you would. What about those people that are so fat that they can’t even get out of bed? Would you dat them just in case they were the one? I highly doubt it. Even if you would date a person like that, that hardly makes you the majority.

There is absolutely no logic behind this statement. And why is that? Because the most beautiful women are the least concerned with being materialistic? I think not. In fact, I think that they are the most concerned (on average, obviously there are many exceptions) with material things, because they have the means of getting them if they want them.

Why do you see ugly rich dudes with beautiful women? Do you think that Hugh Heffner gets all the Playmates because the women find him attractive?

Your comment was just an attempt at “teaching me a lesson” with no real reasonable logic behind it.

Well, beautiful women who care about more than flashy cars and money will ignore you. I meant to post that but somehow it got left out.

Have fun with your attitude if you want, but do be aware that there are a lot of women who run screaming from it. Someday you might want to rethink this.

[carefully steps over the rhinostylee’s argument]

Fnoof, I was in exactly the same situation as you are–the firewalls, the poetry, the quiet sobbing in my bed because I saw myself spending the rest of my life with her, but could never be with her. It really screwed me up. She was The One.

My advice to you is to wait a few weeks, or however long it takes for you to be completely sure she’s The One, print out your OP and send it to her, but only if you feel you can trust her not to laugh in your face. Anyone worth it won’t ridicule you for such feelings. Don’t expect her to run into your arms, though–thinking that way and being rejected is a sure route to depression, and depression’s an ugly thing.

Keep on being rational about it–keep your head on your shoulders. I didn’t and I regret it. Good luck and follow your heart.

I wanted to add that a) I’m more than a bit jaded on the topic of romance at the moment, having been dumped by my fiance and b) I HAVE briefly dated a fat guy, back in high school. It didn’t last, but that was because he wanted me to have sex when I wasn’t ready to have sex with anybody at all.

I once dated a guy who, while not uglier than sin, was in sin’s general neighborhood. I, on the other hand, am fairly good looking. My ex had man-boobs, acne, and this weird skin disorder that made it seem as though he was blushing constantly. He also lacked 1970’s style rock star hair, which is usually my number one physical requirement. In short, this guy had nothing going for him physically save the fact that he was taller than I am. He wasn’t hideous, but it was a fairly close thing. However, I thought he was funny and well-meaning, and I went out with him. So, yes, thanks, I’ve been in a relationship with virtually NO physical attraction.

In my opinion, [though it was definitely not the case with the aforementioned] a great sense of humor, intelligence and whatever else can definitely compensate for less-than-glorious physical features. Plus, I’ve found that the more you talk to someone, the more their true nature seems to seep into their looks. If I like someone as a person, they gradually look more attractive. So, to cut right to the chase, rhinostylee, for some people, it honestly doesn’t matter.

One more thing. To me, there’s nothing more unattractive than a man who thinks his money and status make him attractive. I’d date a poor, unattractive guy over a billionaire adonis if the former had my kind of mind and the latter was as fun to be around as a bag of camel dung.
Now, in regards to the actual point of the thread and to get back to what the OP was asking about in the first place. From reading you up there, you seem like a nice guy to me, Fnoonf. (Not that a few paragraphs on a message board is the greatest indicator in the world, but it’s all I’ve got). You’ve got a sense of humor and you’re obviously smart enough to post around this place. I’d say hell with it, ask her if she’d be intersted in a normal, out-to-dinner scenario with you. Don’t get too stressed out about things and just sort of…go with it. It’s always the best when you just go with it and let things come naturally. Good luck. :slight_smile:

Posted by Fnoonf: “Be cool, excellent and absent, as per the Tao of Steve.”

I would counter with “Faint heart never won fair lady”. The absent part, in particular, won’t make any progress for you. I’d go ahead and get this show on the road if you think you’d like a relationship with her.

[My Grandma] “If there’s something you value, don’t neglect it and leave it in the yard. Somebody may come by that wants it, and they’ll take it.”[/Grandma]

With his attitude and obvious experience at failure, it’s no wonder that rhinostylee’s comments are absurd.
It sounds like he’s wanting to start an “Ask the guy who can’t get girls how to get girls” thread. :rolleyes:

You know, if this kind of thing goes on we may have to abandon the Annual Straight Dope Virgin Hunt. It’s no fun when they don’t hide.

**

Me too. I mean, how would you ever meet them in the first place?

If a woman doesn’t look like someone set her face on fire and then beat out the flames with a hedgehog (or similar somatic equivalent), she’s got a chance. I certainly know plenty of fat girls - with facial piercings, in some cases - who are dating/married.

**

They can also get guys they like. Think about it.

Rhinostylee, I think you are immature and crude, a guy who cares more about ass than about the real person.

That being said, and as a girl myself (albeit young) I think the best way to go about this is to:

A. Go for the smooth and rational approach. Send her candy and flowers with a card. Not a sappy card, because nobody likes those, but merely signing your name will work just fine.

B. If you are in the position that this does not work, (and I believe you are) follow your heart. This sounds damn rose-tinted-glasses-naive in writing, but you certainly sound like you have some powerful feelings for this girl. If you do this, you will throw all this careful planning and stereotypes and anxiety out the window and do what you really want to do. A hint: don’t do poetry unless you know it’s good.

C. Go talk to somebody you trust about this. Like your mom, maybe. No offense, but I think it must be a pretty sad life you have, if the only people you can discuss your love woes with is a message board where you’ve never met anybody and you have no clue who’s on the other side of the keyboard. Hell, I could say I’m Angelina Jolie if I wanted to.

Thanks for your replies, everyone. I didn’t really start this thread in any particular search of advice (I just felt I had something to share), but I’ve found far more of it than I expected, and generally it’s been very good advice. I also loved hearing from you others who have had this kind of situation/these kinds of feelings. Again, thanks.

None taken, as I think you’re slightly misunderstanding where I’m coming from. As stated above, I wasn’t seeking advice for my woes, but satisfying an urge to contribute a slice-of-life story to the community with which I spend so much time interacting. I was (and still am) experiencing something new and exciting, and I thought I’d hear the Dopers’ thoughts on it.

That said, you are partly right in that I can’t talk about this with anyone in real life, but it’s not through lack of people to talk to, but rather the repercussions of trying to explain this type of feeling to people, even close friends. If I were to say to my best friend “I’m getting this vague feeling that Julia and I are going to be together for the rest of our lives,” he would be likely to take it quite seriously, even though the feeling itself is almost like a joke to me, its nagging persistence being the only thing giving me pause. No amount of explanation on my part is going to be able to downplay it in his mind, because let’s face it – it’s a nutty thought to vocalize. Not cataclysmic or anything, just weird. I probably wouldn’t feel comfortable.

Your other pieces of advice were spot-on, though (point B particularly appealed to me, hopeless romantic that I am). Thanks. And yet again, thanks to all who’ve posted.