And Lizard, I hate to bring this up, but how can you be morally opposed to homosexuality, but you think it’s okay to hire a hooker? I’m not commenting on either one, it’s just kind of odd…
Getting back to the OP:
Is it possible that this guy isn’t worried about what weirddave thinks, but rather has other issues?
I had an aquaintance who didn’t have that “I’m gay, I’m ok” attitude. There was self-loathing, shame, and a whole lotta denial. So he’d do gay things, but insist “I’m not gay!”. He’d try dating women for a while, and then go right back to messing around with men.
hmm… growing up with a racist, homophobic dad, I know how cruel people can be… whenever he sees a black person in a car while he’s drivin’ he’s all like, “yo whassap homes” just loud enough for me to hear… I have many black friends and it pisses me off. he’s the same with gay people, I think being gay is just like being a different race inside a race, an it shows how unique, and diferent we are, we should embrace this difference, and not use it for hatred… it isn’t a personal choice or decision, it is a feeling that you get from birth. I am a straight, caucasion from the US heartland, but I live a couple hrs from Minneapolis… so I have some gay friends, can I hve them over?no, can i TELL MY DAD? no, he’d flip, start asking me if they have made inappropriate advance to me, touched me in inapproriate spots and all this shit and it makes me mad!!!
anyway… just thought I’d drop off my $0.02
Dave, my only guess is he has problems with it. I’m of the opinion it’s not my business. You wanna do it? Fine. I am opposed morally, but you didn’t ask me.
This may be the year 2000, but we have a long way to go when it comes to most types of tolerance, and especially in regards to the various forms and expressions of sexuality. How interesting that I’ve read this thread after watching American Beauty (for the fourth time!)…the homophobia Col. Fitts displays is not in the slightest a rarity in this world. Homosexuality has been more openly discussed only in the last 15 years or so, and even so, stereotyping and raised eyebrows abound. Oftentimes I feel that the various queens and such paraded on Ricky Lake, et al. are still being demeaned and looked at as a source of entertainment, rather than anyone to take seriously. It’s certainly an improvement over complete silence, ignorance, and avoidance, but a long way from acceptance (and complete acceptance is extremely unlikely–there will always be those who loathe the people different than themselves, be it color of skin, nationality, or orientation).
The people who were aghast, appalled, and nauseated by homosexuals 15 years ago aren’t likely to have made significant changes in opinions during this time, especially if they are part of an older generation (think Rudy from Survivor. “Outing” remains an extremely risky action, and your neighbor has good reason to be timid.
My friend David and I were discussing this today (After I came out to him, he’s gay also). Anyway, we were saying, we have to be very cautious who we tell at our school. Our school is very new, and surprisingly there are a lot of close minded assholes who go here. Word travels quite fast at my school, and I have been very cautious who I tell I am gay.
Intolerance is quite prevalent, especially in places that aren’t major urban centers (though, i’m sure that can vary as well). I know that even though this area is fairly tolerant, i couldnt even be open with a BF to the extent you could in SF. Even though in HS, i had never heard anyone get beat up and called a fag, i knew that some of the students WOULD have a problem with me if I came out then.I am very private about a lot of very deep personal things, and i know from watching people, that I have to be careful who I tell. Especially with matters pertaining to my sexuality.Just because I dont wave a rainbow flag doesn’t mean i’m ashamed to be gay.
Now, I can sympathize why your neighbor is claiming he’s not gay. It sounds like he doesnt really know you. For him, he doesnt know what could happen, he just knows that if he makes the wrong move, he could get into some serious trouble.
I morally opposed to people who aren’t gay. I’m serious here. We have a global population problem. If more people would just stick to samesex relationships and adopt children… maybe we could get this under control. Ok, it’s a stretch, but no more ridiculous than some of the arguments homophobes can come up with.
Dr Laura was, on national radio, defending her position that gays were “deviants”. Biblical argument. Ridiculous, as she is supposed to be Jewish and the biblical anti-gay arguments are in the New Testament.
Andygirl and Doobieous, here’s a big hug for you guys. It’s a scary and brave thing to come out openly while you’re in high school where the pressure to conform is so intense. Luckily, in y’all’s case, heat and pressure made diamonds. Bless you both.
[Goboy opens a fresh can of whoop-ass]I’m going to control
myself so the mods don’t scold me, but some admonishments must be handed out.
That is a breathtakingly dumb thing to say. Am I supposed to lie about my identity so folks like you can feel comfortable? Why is it that if a straight talks about his grilfriend, nobody cares, but if a gay man talks about his boyfriend, he’s accused of flaunting his homosexuality or shoving it in people’s faces?
I’m a quiet, masculine, regular guy, the last person you’d think was gay. I don’t talk about it because I’m a private person, but if I mention I had a date, I’ll say “he was cute” or “I don’t want to see him again”, as a matter of course. I see being gay as just one segment of the human sexual spectrum.
SaintZero and Lizard, you’re bigots. Wake up and smell the intolerance. you’re opposed to homosexuality on moral grounds? How can an orientation be moral or immoral? You might as well be morally opposed to being lefthanded or wiggling one’s ears. :rolleyes:
Why is it I could marry a woman in a Las Vegas chapel in five minutes and form a legally binding contract that must be recognized in all fifty states and confers on my wife inheritance and property rights, but if I shared a house and a life with a man for twenty years, we would be legally just friends, without even the option of recognition of common-law status like unmarried heterosexuals get?
Are there promiscuous gay folk? Sure. Are there promiscuous straight folk? Turn on “Sex And The City”. Are there decent, taxpaying, law abiding, suburban gay folk? Absolutely. Me, for one. Most gay folk want the same things most straight folk want: a good job, a nice house, and someone to come home to who makes the whole thing worthwhile.
Brood, good response. I don’t really agree with all of it. I have been out pretty much everywhere for about 10 years (I am 25) and was out to a select group of friends before that. There is a major difference. Can you imagine what it would be like if if you weren’t allowed to tell people that you had kids? It is the same type of thing. How about if 90% of the people around couldn’t talk about their kids because if they did they would get verbally harassed, physically abused, or even fired from their jobs. Kids are such a major part of people’s lives when they have them that it is pretty hard to imagine not talking about them. Now imagine you can’t talk about your husband/wife with the same consequences as above. It is so similar it is scary. Well, most people still can’t talk about their gay spouse as Andygirl stated above because she doesn’t want all that harassment.
Our generation is more open to homosexuality than any in the past. Gen Y is even more open that Gen X. I have never had a problem with the Gen Y people but have with the Gen X people with homosexuality issues. Obviously this is not a universal experience as Andygirl pointed out.
Visibility and education are the only two ways I can think of to make homosexuality not a target of various forms of violence. I am out of the closet because I want the next generation of gay people to have it even easier than I do. Not to say what I do is easy. It is not. Most discrimination based on orientation in a job type situation is not appealable or even looked down upon. I have two good friends in San Antonio who were both fired from their jobs for being gay. One, James, was a school teacher for several years and when he finally came out they fired him right away for having “deviency.” In my job you can appeal discriminatory acts up to the secretary (which is pretty liberal for the government) so I feel lucky. When I compare this to racial discrimination and how actions taken regarding it I feel unlucky as it is appealable all the way up to the Supreme Court. There are many other steps in between the Secretary and the Supreme Court. If I feel deeply wronged by someone who is homophobic and that person either makes my life hell or gets me fired I don’t have as many choices to right that wrong as say a black or hispanic person. That is wrong. Even white people can appeal discriminatory actions upon themselves all the way to the Supreme Court. We have less rights than the straight majority, staying in the closet insures us that we always will. It is the stand up and be counted thing. If all the gay people in the world were finally counted the number would be much higher than the 10-15% that most surveys actually quote. It would probably be around 25% (this is men and women). I believe this because I know too many closet cases who will not ever admit they are gay to themselves but go out and suck cock every night. They won’t admit it to themselves, why would they admit it on a survey?
I am not meaning to flame you, Brood, as I know that you don’t mean to be inflammatory. It is just that gay people are an invisible minority. For the most part you can’t tell if a person is gay by looking at them and when others find out the word spreads fast. Sigh. I am off my soapbox now.
Lizard, believe what you want. I always thought being moral had something to do with not harming other individuals financially, physically, or spiritually. Why do you oppose gays morally?
Andygirl,"andygirl Because I’m gay, I have personally:
had the boys in the Aryan Nation at my school discuss how much fun it would be to gang rape me
had said boys back me in a corner, and I still shiver to think about what would have happened if other people hadn’t come into the room
been ostracized from my school
endured comments and homophobic taunting
been slammed up against a locker
had boys grab their crotches and make obscene gestures at me
had my bookbag spat on
had to sit through teachers making homophobic comments
had several fundamentalist christians attempt to perform an “exorcism” on me and my girlfriend
Because my girlfriend is gay, she has personally:
been beaten by her father
been threatened by her parents that they’ll kick her out
been verbally abused by her entire family
had to endure humiliation in gym class
Some of my friends and exes have:
been forced into mental institutions against their will
been beaten until they were unconsious
committed suicide
abused drugs and alcohol
been forced out of their homes
been raped
received death threats"
The really sad thing is that most of these things happened to me too. I went to the school’s administration (Principal and Vice-Principal) and they both said that I was exxagerating. When it got worse, I went back and they said they would look into it. They never did. I don’t know if it was because I was gay or a thug child. I usually fought back though. At one school I was being harassed (physically) by a group of assholes so I singled one guy out and beat the crap out of him while his friends were beating on me. I wasn’t hurt too bad but the other guy peeed blood for a week. I wasn’t nice about it when I had to fight. I am a pacifist so this is completely against me. I only protect myself and others that I love. Sigh. At that school I wasn’t bothered again.
Ruffian, you are right. Flamboyantly gay people are viewed as entertainment. I think it is wrong but any type of visibility is good as then people will realize that we are more numerous than the homophobes would believe.
HUGS!
Sqrl
goboy: Excellent response. You said everything I would’ve said and more. Apparently, to some people, holding hands in public with your significant other is like painting a swastika in your head. I’d say the problem lies in the perceiver and not the perceived.
dewt: We don’t really have a global population problem. Many industrialized countries are already reproducing below the replacement rate, and globally, world population is increasing but at a decreasing rate. An increased standard of living is nearly always accompanied by a decreased birth rate.
I look at this thread after watching some news magazine report (probably a repeat) on the Teena Brandon story last night. (Did Hillary Swank deserve that Oscar or what!!???) Anyway, it wasn’t the first time that I’d seen this poor child’s mother bawling on television. (I consider her a child because she was only 19.) It just breaks my heart. Yeah they were out in Nebraska and it’s pretty obvious they were all a bunch of rednecks but for some damned reason this story just breaks my heart. It’s as though this young person was doomed to live this short life full of conflict and pain only to die brutally and suddenly because of someone else’s indifference and predjudice. Yeah if I were gay or having a “sexual identity crisis” I might hesitate “coming out”. Because in the end we all just want to be happy and live a full life free of persecution and abuse.
Needs2know
Mmm… big belt buckle wearing cowboy hat tipping nasty tobacoo dipping angry rednecks… {Homer Simpson Hungry Noises}
My, what an unabashedly homophobic thing to say. Thank you for giving us an excellent example of Dubya’s “compassionate conservatism,” which interprets as, “Shut up and act like me or you get what you deserve.” No doubt the woman in your scenario deserves to get raped - after all, she’s asking for it.
“You know, I don’t mind those black people, as long as they don’t eat watermelon in front of me.”
“You know, I don’t mind those Jewish people, as long as they don’t wear a yamikule.”
“You know, I don’t mind women, as long as they don’t flaunt their wares at me.”
Get a grip.
Wise words - so why does someone “acting gay” (whatever that means) bother you so much? Perhaps you ought to be a little more responsible about yourself.
Why, some of my best friends… :rolleyes:
Yes, gay people all over the country only “act gay” because it invites harassment, abuse, suffering, discrimination and the possibility of death. We just invite that stuff by doing things we’re supposed to be allowed to do in this country like, oh, be different.
Isn’t that what they said in Germany circa 1939?
I don’t care if someone’s a homophobe, just don’t wave it in my face and then get mad if I say something about it.
Esprix
Bwahhahahahahahahaha!!! ROTFLMA!!!
pldennison: Thanks for the clarification. 
(phew- what a relief)
FTD Florist truck pulls up outside Guinastasia’s house, driver runs up to door, delivers dozen roses and box of chocolates. WTG!
Getting back to the OP, Dave, have you considered the possibility that what you observed (the heavy kiss, etc.) might have been a one-time thing? Or some kind of a watershed in their relationship (platonic roomies turn into lovers, or alternatively, one person suddenly getting in touch with his Inner Gay), and when you asked him about it, he still wasn’t ready to deal with it, so he gave the automatic response?
My advice would be, don’t push it. If you saw a guy and a girl passionately kissing like that, would your response be to ask him, “Hey, are you two sleeping together?” and then to invite the two of them over for dinner (my, what a cute couple they are)?
Ooh, goboy, I was cheering for you until this paragraph.
Are you arguing that gay people deserve equal protection because they want what most straight people want? Because they’re decent and suburban? Because they’re not promiscuous? Where does that leave people who aren’t like that?
The movement you describe isn’t the gay rights movement I signed up for. I signed up because I wanted the right to be different.
I don’t want human rights because I’m just like straight people. I want human rights because I’m human.
You want to be suburban and decent? You go right ahead. Just don’t piss on those of us who aspire to something different, and don’t predicate your life on being normal.
My brother is about 6 feet tall, 185 pounds, blonde, blue eyed and one of the coolest people you would ever want to meet. He is also openly gay (and taken).
He lives in Vancouver and there are groups of rednecks there that go cruising for the sole purpose of beating up people they perceive to be gay. I feel no pity on the fools that have gone after him just because he is gay. They have assumed wrongly that because he’s gay that he can’t kick ass with the best of them.
I have had to deal with several homophobes in my workplace and feel that change is an all too slow process.
Absolutely not. Matt, in no way was I saying that promiscuity is bad or making any judgements on folks who enjoy living on the edge. I was arguing against homophobic sterotypes. Drag queens and leather queens are wonderful people, but they do not represent the majority of gay people. Yet anytime a pride march is covered, who gets prominent coverage?
I embrace Radical Faeries, the leather community, and drag queens, but they aren’t me. They don’t represent my goals, my aspirations, or my identity. I [Ilike* being a
suburban gay guy. I don’t want to be like straight people; I want to be what I want to be, and that involves watching football, lifting weights, drinking beer on weekends, going to law school next year, and having sex with men.
I support and applaud your right to be different. Why can’t you support and applaud my right to settle down after years of living abroad in relative poverty? I don’t expect all gay people to be like me, but I would like you radical types to recognize that not all of us want to dress up like Carmen Miranda.
I agree 100%.
Matt, I respect your choices, but you also have to remember you’re 18 and I’m 39, and I did the radical, angry thing when you were a toddler. Heck, I had my first boyfriend before you were born. I lost my first friend to AIDS in 1983. I protested Burroughs-Wellcome’s price hikes while you were in diapers, and I was active. Now I’m tired, I want to settle down, and I want to get financially comfortable while I’m still young enough to do so.
I guess what I’m saying is that folks of my generation lived through the onset of the AIDS epidemic and the hostility of the Reagan years, and you should respect your elders who went through hell for your right to be queer.
I RESPECT you. I don’t AGREE with the intent of the paragraph you cited.
I know. Like I said:
Do you see how that paragraph of yours I cited could be read as an argument from normalcy?