Yes, I remember. I have a hard time beleiving you, though. For a 150 pound person, three miles is going to equal roughly 300 calories.
That leaves 700 calories to process waste, make the heart beat, the body move, breathe and last but most importantly, maintain body temperature.
I suggest you contact the amazing Randi and claim the million dollars. All you need to do is bring in your magical hypothyroid people who sustain themselves from zero point energy.
I’m sorry you’re so sick. I made a point earlier in the thread about medical conditions and medications creating exceptions.
Not much different than the scenario I presented earlier. Fortunately for this particular patient, their doctor eventually found a treatment that works.
thatDDperson:
Maybe I should be cutting you slack, seeing as you’re dying, but I did talk about medical and medication exceptions earlier in this thread, and I did talk about the combination of diet and exercise being the key.
Seeing as I said both those things, and they are true, I really don’t see where you get off calling me “simplistic” or a “smug bastard.”
Having cancer surgery, taking the medications pretty much disqualifies you from what I said, and if it doesn’t I somehow doubt you were on a rigorous exercise program following your surgery when you failed to lose weight.
Your renal failure is an entirely seperate and much more serious issue than the weight loss scenario of an otherwise healthy person.
Jeff:
You understand my point, I trust. People may say things. That doesn’t necessarily make them true. I understand your point that hypothyroidism may make it difficult for people to lose weight, and that they may not get the same metabolic advantages to exercise as others.
Hopefully you understand my point. That is if they are consuming less calories than they expend, they cannot maintain weight gain without dying.
1,000 calories a day for a normal size person accompanied by a moderate cardiovascular exercise program is starvation. A body uses more calories than that just sitting there. If such a person is still gaining weight, than they are very sick indeed. They are still starving. They are still losing muscle and fat. They have to be because the physics are not subject to alteration.
So I have a hard time believing that what the person you quote as saying is accurate. It may be accurate if that person is so sick that their body is not processing waste normally and is retaining it instead. Such a person though is not fat. They are sick. Very sick.
You seem to be focussing on excptions, or very special cases. I am not. I am speaking strictly about otherwise healthy people.
A person in kidney failure with an intestinal blockage isn’t likely to lose weight no matter how little they eat, either. Since I am not talking about these kind of things this is hardly a counterargument to what I am saying.
Some medications will throw off body chemistry and cause people to retain fluids causing weight gain even if they consume below their maintanence level. This does not disprove my point either.
Diuretics and water rationing will also cause people to lose weight, but they are not what we are talking about.
BINGO!!
See? THIS is one of the primary problems with this useless little phrase.
A large pecentage of overweight people who aren’t educated exercise, health and fitness-wise DO see it as “starve on rabbit food”.
Scylla, you also mentioned that you have helped a lot of people lose weight. Might I presume that part of that was in educating them in what types of exercise to do? The right lifting routines? The right way to eat, and how to make meals that don’t taste like sawdust?
I would go further and presume that by your very presence, you were providing these people a “fill” for the void they previously attempted to fill with food, by standing by them, going through the exercises, cheering them on?
THIS is what I, and a ton of other people in this thread have been talking about. THAT is what is needed, that is what is successful and goes far beyond the simplistic “eat less, exercise more”.
Most overweight people have tried and tried to lose weight, by diet, exercise, and both, probably a few dozen different diet and/or exercise programs each.
The problem is, that if these folks don’t have someone who DOES know the physiology of fat loss, like you, and especially if they are someone who has gotten to the point they find themselves in by yo-yoing. They’ve likely gone through diets, tried and either not lost any fat, or worse, gained it all back PLUS when the diet failed.
Then, as you well know, with the resultant muscle loss brought on by most extreme low calorie (or UBER aerobics) programs, they are now going to gain more, on less food than they did before (muscle is where calories are burned, if you lose 10 pounds on a severe calorie restriction diet, about 6-8 of those pounds will be muscle, water weight next, and if you’re lucky, maybe 1 pound was fat).
Those 8 pounds of muscle they lost adds up to 400 fewer calories they can consume per day. So, unless they cut back even further, they’re going to continue to gain weight, on the same amount of food.
This is what makes the “eat less, exercise more” a useless mantra. WITHOUT backup help (a personal trainer, a good program ala Joe Weider, Bill Phillips, the leanness lifestyle guy, even Jack LaLanne), and education on how to “eat less, execise more” PROPERLY, effectively and permanently, this supposedly “simple” solution is useless.
That is what those of us against this little saying are getting at, NOT that “because it’s not simple, it shouldn’t be done” but NO, it’s not simple, there’s more, and without the “MORE” it’s not likely to work.
Scylla, what I think you may be overlooking is that these medical conditions may not be as rare as you think. Not everyone has the extreme situation that ThatDDPerson has, but I have listed several medical conditions that for me were a factor in my obesity – genetics, polycystic ovarian syndrome, seratonin imbalance, hypothyroidism, birth control pills, and hormone replacement therapy. After reading one of the posts here, I see that I can add another to the list – low blood sugar. And there appears to be a tendency for metabolism to slow down as we age.
To look at me, you wouldn’t know that I had any of those illnesses during my lifetime. And you wouldn’t see the physical problems that make exercise more difficult. I’m not an authority on how many people have medical conditions that affect their metabolism. Are you?
Boy are you asking a math phobic to do math!! :D. Yes, of course there is a “level off stage” but the formula that explains by which equation that works? Please refer to the cite I provided (3 pages ago?), www.hussman/eas.com
He has one of the best “muscle burn” ratios, he also has a ton of links to others which are what I use.
Scylla, and I think Jeff Olson (sorry if I don’t credit the right poster) and several others have posted the answer to these questions with various explanations on pages 5, 6 and 7 of this thread.
Thanks for clearing that up. Looked to me like you were pinch hitting for Tarantula.
Zoe:
No. IANA Doctor, but, I don’t think you are either. What does your Doctor say?
Does he tell you a diet and exercise program will be unsafe for you and will not result in weight loss or does he think it’s a good idea?
I know birth control pills can cause you to retain water. Retaining water is a different thing than weight loss and fitness as far as I am concerned.
A 250 pound man that drops 40 pounds on diuretics hasn’t lost weight in any meaningful way as far as I’m concerned.
Age and genetics can be compensated for, and are rarely much of an obstacle.
Canvasshoes:
You’re giving me a lot of credit. What I did for myself, and what I’ve done for others is set a fitness goal, and everything else tends to fall into place as a result of that goal.
If you first build the body up through exercise rather than break it down with diet weight loss tends to be pretty easdy.
The hardest part, and it’s very hard, is getting yourself to the point where you can do 45 minutes of hard cardio work 5-6 days a week. It’s a slow hard buildup and you better be feeding yourself well, and, if you are doing it right you will almost surely gain weight during this phase.
Get to that point though, and the rest is cake.
My favorite is when I go out to eat with other people and they say: “How do you eat so much and stay so thin? I would kill to have your genes or your metabolism. I’m always on a diet, and I can’t seem to lose a pound.”
But it’s not my metabolism or my genes. It’s spending 1 hour a day taking care of myself. It’s as necessary as sleep.
I read an interview with John Travolta once. Apparently, he was eating dinner during the interview, and was putting away a mind-boggling quantity of food. The interviewer asked him how he managed to eat so much and stay so fit. Travolta said that he loves to eat, and in order to eat the way he likes, he works out, like, 3 hours a day. The alternative, he said, would be working out less and eating less. He’d rather exercise more and eat more.
Gaaah! That’s my pet peeve. When people (usally overweight) act as if I’ve been handed my metabolism on a silver platter and they’ve been left out in the cold.
Alot of the tables and charts are kind of bogus. I did one online that said I was obese. Heh- yeah right. Something like a Tanita Body Fat Scale (especially those that have the “athlete setting”) are much more accurate. I bought one for my house and know I have a much better idea what my body composition is. You get get them from Amazon.com and other places. Look at the mid-line models and up.
Exercise for those able (and there are many options available for those with physical limitations thankfully, but not all sadly enough) seems to be the key. Diet alone has never worked for me. Making good food choices and getting plenty of exercise has carved 10 pounds of lard and 5% body fat off my frame since this winter. This has moved me from getting dropped on the hills by the Big Dogs, to riding at the front of the peleton and attacking on the hills.
Although that being said, I did have a Krispy Kreme jelly donut today- although unlike last winter I did not eat 3 of them.
Again I would like to restate how impressed I am with the effort that some Dopers are making to lose weight. My only concern with this thread is the explanations for why some people have a much harder time losing weight are too often co-opted as excuses as to why its not worth trying in the first place. 
Canvasshoes: your link(s) about muscle mass and metabolism didn’t work.
Scyllia: Can you point me to some websites that go further in depth about the connection between regular exercise & metabolism? I can only find a few good ones on google.
Okay. Indirectly my morality question was answered.
One reason that some people imbue the weight question with a moral dimension is because they’ve worked very hard to be in the shape they are and resent us fat people claiming they had it handed to them.
I’m not convinced that this is the sole reason, or even the reason for the majority of it. Anyone else?
Calculus:
I put in “Metabolism and exercise” and the first two links were good.
Here’s one:
http://www.vicfit.com.au/fitness/Content/Pub/ContentDetail.asp?lngContentID=20
The one about hematology is also good.
There’s some nutty stuff on that search, but stick to the mainstream science and you should be ok.
I get my information from Runner’s World which does a lot on nutrition, weight loss and metabolism, and has good books recommended some of which I own and can point you to when I get home if you’re interested.
Sports medecine and nutrition really does have this down to a science.
Weight lifters know how to bulk up on lean tissue, and burn fat to get that “cut” look, and to run a marathon you need to pay careful attention to your diet and metabolism, so that you are at the place of maximum power and energy before you start.
I’ll take a stab. I’m not particularly bothered by people’s individual choices, and I typically like it when people complement me or ask how I stay thin eating so much (I get to sit back and lecture until they run away.)
Sometimes seeing very fat people does bother me, especially if they’re eating a huge quantity of food. The feeling is kind of like watching a person cut their fingers off (that’s too strong an analogy,) or the feeling you get when you watch somebody who’s way to drunk order a bunch of shots.
Watching somebody self-destruct is not a pleasant experience no matter what form it takes, and for me, in extreme cases it provokes feelings of both sympathy and contempt.
Lastly it provokes both a feeling of “there but for the grace of God, go I,” type fear as well as a “that could never happen to me” sort of smugness.
I get all those feelings on occasion when I witness an unusual circumstance like an enormous person committing a gluttonous act, but it’s a pretty rare thing.
Most of the time I just feel bad for overweight people and I wish I could help them.
Thank you; I’ll check that out. I’m gonna stop looking at those doctors’ charts. I wonder if I should stay away from the bathroom scales as well?
My Doctor friend tells me that they’ve got a new test (or newish) that can do a full body fat analysis just by hooking up two electrodes.
The old way to do it right is either to measure a whole bunch of areas (where they pinch fat with calipers,) or immerse you in water and figure out your body by displacement versus weight.
As long as they keep the electrodes out of the water, I’ll go for it.
Can they measure muscle mass too?