Something I need to get off my chest about the SD Board

The BBQ Pit
21

H4E, like many of her ilk, can’t seem to tell the difference between opinion and fact. Fact always trumps opinion. And those who hold and push opinions that are not consistent, and are in fact in direct tension with facts, are liars, and deserve to be treated as such.

For instance:

H4E has a whole lot of opinions on Mormonism, based upon biased, anti-Mormon writings. A buch of Mormons on this board have countered her with facts, and all she did in return was get indignent because people wouldn’t just accept her bullshit opinion as if it were God’s own Truth. Typical fundamentalist. They pull this shit on every issue you can imagine: gays, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, you name it, they hate it, they lie about it, and get all bitchy when people who have the actual facts on thier side attack their opinions.

Opinions are worthless when the contradict the facts, H4E. You can’t argue “you believe what you do and I’ll believe what I do” when you’re dealing with issues involving facts. The fact is that Mormons are not guilty of the lies you throw against them. Gays are not anti-Christian abominations and perverts. And Catholics are just as Christian, if not more so, than any Baptist, and do not worship Mary or anything else your fuckheaded leader, Jack T. Chick, claims they do.

All that matters in an argument are facts, not opinions, and you have no facts on your side.

22

psst, Kirkland We’re in the Pit now, so don’t hold back. :wink:

In this forum, and after His4ever’s intransigent stance and imperviouslness to reason, I’ll not suggest you calm down.

23

Well, here’s another link to add to Grendel’s, which is to the “Is the United Methodist Church moving towards acceptance of Homosexuals?” thread–evidently His4ever has two threads forming the combined bee under the bustle.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132605&pagenumber=4
That’s page 4 of the “Calling all Fundies” thread.

Gays and Mormons. Sheesh.

We’ve been doing this “Fighting Ignorance” thing longer than you have, dear–the sources you’ve named so far have all been suspect, one way or another. We’re not just saying that because this is “our turf” and heaven help anyone who disagrees with us–we’re saying that because one way or another, we are all devoted to the “TRUTH”.

And your cites are not the “TRUTH”. Quoting a book written by an ex-Mormon who considers that she has had a narrow escape from a cult doesn’t count as a reputable cite for “what Mormons believe”.

Ms. Greer only knows what she’s talking about if the subject is “people who think they’ve had a narrow escape from a dangerous cult”. There are a number of smart, sensible people who post on these boards who tell me that Mormonism is not a cult, and ya know what? I’ve known them longer than I’ve known you, and Greer I’ve never even met, and I’m gonna believe the people I know, rather than the people I don’t know.

Plus I can always look things up on the Internet, and so get at the “TRUTH” that way, too. This serves as a useful double-check on the things that Monty and others tell me about Mormonism, and guess what–so far I haven’t caught him in any dastardly Mormon lies. Guess maybe he’s telling the truth, huh? when he says that Greer is F.O.S.

So where does that leave you?

You are absolutely right, but remember, that’s a knife that cuts both ways. We don’t have to agree with you, but you’re the one who seems to be having a problem with that. Grow a thicker skin, or find another message board, would be my advice.

24

Do I need to point out the contradiction here?

Derleth, you have it all wrong. Free Speech absolutely means that utter morons can say pretty much whatever they want to say. Smart people, too.

I’m not sure what the point of your post is, now that I think of it.

25

H4E, if anything, I hope that you’ve at least learned to closely examine the reasons behind your beliefs. Don’t simply accept what your preacher says is God’s word… read and study your Bible for yourself. Don’t simply accept someone else’s interpretation.

I think that was the basic gist that some people were trying to tell you… that they think your opinions are based on flawed evidence.

26

(Hopefully accurate but highly simplified explanation, please correct me if I’m mistaken. Also, the beginning of this situation is in page 2 of the thread linked to by DDG.)

His4ever, you cited a source that dealing with LDS doctrine that posters who identify as LDS said does not accurately represent recognized LDS doctrines, and presented sources which they believe do fairly represent LDS doctrine. If a source says that a religion holds doctrines which are not the same doctrines as those which a follower of the religion in question says that they hold, in terms of identifying doctrinal points of that religion, it is best to accept not your own source, but rather those sources deemed authoritative by actual followers of the religion in question. Basically, don’t tell people what they believe – they know what they believe better than anyone else does.

That’s why it’s Great Debates, and not Great Foregone Conclusions.

You share what the Bible says, but not everybody accepts the Bible as authoritative. If a person doesn’t see the Bible as authoritative, they probably won’t accept what the Bible says on an issue.

Actually, it was demonstrated that she does not know what she’s talking about. Sorry.

Well, I’m definitely in agreement there.

27

His4ever, I must admit this is true. Although it seems that you as a bible believing Christian, believe everything in the bible and just want to spread the word, there are people here who don’t believe it and are offended by it.

Try to see it from their side. Actually you are now because you aern’t liking what they are saying to you. You are allowed to believe whatever you want but there are gonna be some people who aern’t going to like it and aern’t going to be very nice about it either. That’s just the world we live in.

You really need to understand that they aern’t attacking you as a person, just what they see you saying. It is true, they ask for “cites”, but only because they want to see where you are getting your information. They want to research it for themselves and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Believe me, I’ve learned all this the hard way and am still learning, but if you want to stick around here and enjoy the place and do some learning yourself, you kinda have to take a step back and give yourself some time to get more familiar with the way things go around here.

You seem like a caring person and I believe that you are. I advise you not to go away as some have suggested on this thread. But instead take some time to hang out, read how the debates go and when you decide to chime in with your own opinion, make sure you aern’t saying anything that would offend anyone. Make sure that if you were reading your post as an unbeliever that it wouldn’t bother you what is being said.

I really hope you decide to stick around :slight_smile:

I seem to have found myself sitting on the other side of the fence. Hmm… wonder how that happened? :wink:

28

Lamar

No one is preventing her from saying anything. The only thing that people here have been doing is preventing her untruths from going into the world unchecked.

29

Lamar, surely you aren’t equating chastizing someone with censorship?
Look around, has anyone prevented H4E from spreading her idiotic lies? No.
This is not censorship.

30

His4ever, there are myriad faiths on this planet held sacred by billions of people and Christianity is just one of the more popular. You’re not in Kansas anymore and you’re not going to get a politeness pass when you tell people they are wrong or immoral because your “plain English” reading of your spiritual text tells you so.

If I am full of love and compassion for people who believe that Christ is the son of God, but I tell them in the kindest and most loving way possible that it is important that they accept and own the fact that they are being credulous simpletons by investing their lives in an patently absurd fairy tale, what do you suppose their reaction might be?

There is no other place on this globe like the SDMB for genuinely curious and intellectually aggressive people. You can enjoy the SDMB for a variety of different reasons, but religious beliefs and faith are at root, deeply personal and emotional issues and spiritual witnessing in various forms on the SDMB generally comes to grief as there are also people here who are intellectually antagonistic to claims of any form of spiritual belief or theist interpretation having the status of an objective “truth”, and will be happy to engage in lacerating arguments over these issues.

If you must indulge yourself in engaging people who are at least as intelligent and passionate as you are in arguments about religious, sexual and moral issues, you’d better wear your rhinoceros hide underwear or find a less challenging place to post.

31

Well, I’m the one who called H4E “lazy liar.” The facts in purt near all of the posts above in this thread should give at least a bit of a hint to her on why I have come to that conclusion.

BTW, DDG: Thanks. {Perhaps my dastardly lies are too dastardly?}

32

But that doesn’t mean that they get a free pass on spreading lies. And technically all freedom of speech means is that the government can’t go around stopping people from speaking out against it. Not that private institutions or individuals can’t work to shut up those who spread lies or hate about them.

And just because two people are both allowed to speak doesn’t mean that they both deserve to have the same weight ascribed to their words. The words of an ignorant person, or a liar, are not worth the same as those of an honest person. The words of someone who reads a book about Mormonism written by an ex-Mormon who had a “saved from the fire” experience are not worth the same as the words of a practicing Mormon who truly knows the teachings of their church. Nor are the words of an anti-gay person who calls has nothing to stand on but the flimsy support of a few random verses from the Bible worth the same as that of a person who actually is gay, and knows what it means to be gay, when dealing with the issue of homosexuality.

All people may be equal (except, of course, for gays, who are routinely denied legal protections that the rest of the country takes for granted), but all opinions are not.

Kirk

33

BTW, H4E: A very good start for you regarding the Bible would be to realize that the thing wasn’t written in “plain English.” Actually, it wasn’t written in English at all. What you’ve been referring to is a translation of the Bible. All translations involve some loss in meaning.

34

But Monty! Not the Magical King Jimbo Bible, the True Word of God ™… 1611 too late. But hey, whose counting?

35

Great line.

H4e, you make the mistake first of assuming that everyone will and should take the Bible to be ultimate truth. Had you lurked in any religious thread on the SDMB for an hour you would have seen that is not the case.

Once you get past that, … well …

36

When someone comes up to me with the Jack Chick attitude of “you must worship my God, or you will roast in Hell for all eternity” I tell them that they have just described the most evil thing imaginable: forced adulation an a stranger who imposes eternal torture on people who refuse to comply. What is this suppposed “god” of yours, the devil? The omnipotent narcissist? Some scam to raise money for his “higher up” followers?

Now if you were to tell me that God created the universe, is omnipotent and loves all of his creations and doesn’t mind being loved in return, that might mean something to me, as it is more in line with my own beliefs. But the fundamentalist crap that Jack Chick, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and company spew is pretty much obvious to me as pure evil, and the nicest thing I can say about it is that they make a lot of money doing it.

Just because you call it Christianity, doesn’t make it Christianity. As Jesus said, “The Devil may quote scripture.” And he does. He also warned that it was particularly sinful for supposedly religious people to take money from widows and impoverish them in the Lord’s name. And it is. That is exactly what these people are doing. And they are spreading hatred, ignorance, prejudice etc. in the name of God.

37

His4ever, as someone who tried to rationally discuss a topic with you, and was ignored, I have to say I don’t understand why you’re complaining. You only respond to the irrational venom-spitters; why would you do that if that was what you wanted to avoid?

Here’s a couple of tips:
1.) If you don’t want to be flamed, ignore flamers and their flames;
2.) If you don’t want your ignorance to be called out, leave the SDMB.

That being said, I hope you’ll stay. When I was younger, I was a message board poster with views not unlike yours. Debate is a valuable pastime!

38

Actually, Dreamer, to my eyes, it seems that most people are taking offense at H4E’s interpretation of the Bible. She would claim that the Bible says a certain thing (“Don’t be gay”, for example), and people would reply by citing the passages of the Bible that supposedly say it… revealing that there is very little in the Bible that does say it.

The Bible can be misinterpreted, easily. I would offer that since God really doesn’t like it when people twist his words, it would be a good idea to not hold so strongly to a single interpretation… especially since that interpretation seems to violate God’s second most important law, “Love thy neighbor”.

39

Well, I’m sorry you’ve been offended but what did you expect? You register for a BB that consists of athiests, extremely tolerant Christians, and what I suspect you would consider ‘heathens’ and start peddling your ugly little gay-bashing, intolerant, mannerlesss god.
As ever, people can say almost anything they want. Nobody is censoring your opinions but being asked to back them up with facts and logic is hardly being rude. As a hint, quoting bible passages at people is not generally going to be acceptable. Arguments from authority don’t make the grade around here.
On the up-side, think of yourself as a martyr like many other christians. It’ll make it more bearable when us poor benighted unbelievers refuse to see the light.

Testy

40

When the authority is anything but, they don’t make the grade.

However, a reputable journal could be considered an authority, and a half-dozen studies saying “X is true when Y is” would get considered a lot more thoroughly than “my friend who escaped Mormonism with her life said X”.