Yeah, you’ve got a point there. When a reputable journal prints something, another researcher can duplicate the experiment and see if their results match. If so, then good, humanity has learned something. Otherwise, it just boils down to “because I said so.” Usually accompanied by a pouting refusal to debate any further and complaints that “they are just too ignorant/narrow-minded to accept this new truth.”
Testy
Please do. I ain’t seeing it.
Which is exactly what I said. You can’t cry ‘Free Speech’ when people chastise you because they have the same right to their speech as you have to yours.
I’m asking the same about your post.
Sometimes what we see in other people is what we are expecting, rather than what is actually there. Certainly there are some people who will lash out simply because of some internal emotional turmoil that has nothing to do with you; however, if you feel that you have received rude and hateful responses, perhaps you should wonder why those posters reacted to you in that way. What is it about your beliefs, or your presentation of those beliefs, that inspires those sort of responses from your audience? Is this the sort of response you want, or expect? If so, why? Do you want to provoke angry responses so that you can feel like a martyr? You are not being attacked by a gang of vicious Satanists, but by various individuals that are much like yourself. Do you deliberately inspire this anger in others so that you will have an excuse to claim superiority over them? Or does it enable you to easily identify those you do not want to hear, so that you can ignore any possible unpleasant truths they might direct your way by labeling them as sheer ‘hatefulness’?
If you truly have a message that you would like others to hear and give due consideration, you will be far more successful by encouraging reasonable, calm discussion - when two people are screaming at each other, neither one can hear. If you wish to convince others that your beliefs are superior to their’s, you must first understand the basis of their beliefs so that you can point out the alleged flaws. Instead of attempting to dictate right and wrong to your audience, try a different approach - for example, “My faith teaches so-and-so, and this is what I truly believe; obviously, you feel otherwise - can you tell me why you feel this way?” There is much more to be gained by acting in this manner than in a manner that has been proven to offend and anger your listeners. Offer them the same respect you are demanding for yourself, and you will be more likely to receive it in return.
No one here is evil, a tool of Satan sent to test your faith. They are all people, just as you are - they simply see the world from their own unique perspective, just as you do. Their beliefs are just as valid to them as your’s are to you.
And you cannot slap tidy little labels on entire groups of people and dismiss them as ‘evil’, or as ‘wicked sinners’ - gays, for example, are individual, living, breathing, humans, just as you are and just as I am. They are not cardboard cutouts created simply to provide you with a bad example to point out to others, or with ‘sinners’ to ‘convert’ in order to gain points with your diety. They are people, no more wicked and no more saintly, on average, than any other group of people - they feel pain, pride, anger, love, hatred, loneliness, and despair, just as you do. They do brave things, honorable things, kind things, and sometimes wicked and hurtful things, just as we all do.
Consider this when you accuse others of being rude and hateful; is it possible that your judgemental remarks were perceived as rude and hateful by your listeners, and you are receiving the same sort of treatment you have been dishing out? You do not have to intend insult in order to give it; insult through ignorance is still offensive.
I seem to recall something in the Bible about being the first to cast a stone, about beams and motes, about loving your neighbor and leaving judgements up to God, but perhaps those verses were left out of your version?
** Derleth ** and Lamar Mundane, I think you’re getting lost in semantics here. Derleth, you say you can’t cry ‘Free speech’, when actually technically you can. I think perhaps you mean that it’s really stupid in an ironic way to do so, not that it can’t be done, right? I think that’s what Lamar Mundane was trying to say.
And if I’m wrong, I get two flames for the price of one. 
His4ever
So here you are whining that the world isn’t what you thought it would be. Boo fucking hoo.
So you got banned at lekatt’s messageboard for being an argumentative tit. We’re all broken up over that.
As far as I can tell, you only had one atheist to deal with over there, so I don’t know why the hell you thought this board would be an island paradise.
Perhaps you thought to enlighten everyone with your opinion? Yeah, that worked out well. We are so onto the fact that you are a whiny bigot.
You expect your hateful, judgemental attitude to be not only tolerated, but celebrated.
That’s not going to happen. There’s only one way you can salvage any of this and maybe even learn something in the process. You could take the stick out of your ass and use it to knock the chip off of your shoulder.
But I won’t be holding my breath in anticipation of the event. Jack Chick is more likely to get assfucked by the ghost of Liberace than you are to find an ounce of reason.
No, it isn’t. But, censorship isn’t out of the question. E.g., several posters have suggested that yours truly be banned because of too many non-PC posts.
His4ever’s POV is utterly unsupported. However, we ought to admit that many who disagree with her also lack support for our positions. Maybe that’s one reason these discrimination debates get so emontional. All sides take positions based more on faith than on facts.
Here’s an example. I will use Jews to represent the designated group, but it could be any other minority. Suppose some poster took the position that Jews should be forced to live separately from gentiles, because they’re different. How can you prove them wrong? Jews are different, at least on average. We all know that the difference dosn’t justify isolating them. Still, how can you prove it?
You could try to evalute the degree of difference and show that it’s too trivial to justify isolating them from gentiles. However, I’ve seldom if ever seen that type of argument with respect to any minority group. It’s usually an article of faith that there’s no significant difference. It might be non-PC to even admit that there’s any difference.
You could try doing a sociological study of cultures that did and did not permit Jews to live among the populace. Maybe you could demonstrate that a sprinklilng of Jews improves society. However, I seldom see that sort of approach in debate.
The more common response is to simply say that the thesis is unthinkable and veer directly into name-calling. That way, we can comfortably ignore any underlying lack of justification in our own beliefs.
Count me as one who’ll say “good riddance” when the intolerant H4E decides to “grace” some other board with her prejudices, illogic, irrationaliy, and, yes, her stupidity. From what I’ve seen, “desire to learn” is not one of her traits.
His4ever complained that people responding to her were bing rude and hateful. After doing some research and reading other posts of hers, I am reminded of an old (cliched) story.
A traveler looking for a new home approached the outskirts of a new town and saw an old man sitting by the side of the road. He said “What are the people like in this place?” The old man asked “What were they like where you came from?” They were jerks! Mean, hateful bigots! Nobody cared about anybody, especially about me." The old man told the traveler “People are like that here too.” The traveler turned away, disgusted that just like before, people here were bad. Another traveler came by and saw the old man. They too asked what the new town was like, and it’s people. When the old man asked “What were people like where you came from?” The second traveler answered “They were great. People took care of each other and didn’t get into fights, at least not very often.” And the old man replied “People are like that here too” And the second traveler found a new home.
I guess what it means, **His4forever, ** is that you find what you expect to. You come off closeminded and extremely opinionated, and when folks respond in kind you can’t deal with it and run away. If you learn to debate logically and back up your statements you could find a good home here. Try it, you’ll like it.
I’ll pray for you in church this morning, after I finish teaching Sunday school.
Cuts both ways, sweetie.
I despise fundies. I find them self righteous and arrogant. MY SILs are Christians, and they lead a life of true Christianity, I believe, by living by example, and not by preaching.
I, OTOH, am not a Chrisitian. I believe God(dess) is too big to fit in one religion. If believing in the Christian god works for you, more power to you. But don’t tell me how you believe is the ONLY way to believe.
BTW, my SILs and I get along great…including a lot of wonderful discussions about religion, with none of the “Ooooooh, you’re going to heeeeelllllll!” nonsense.
His4ever,
I, for one, will not yell at you. I will not call you names. I will not even suggest you leave these boards. On the contrary, I welcome you here and hope you continue to read our debates and join in on them when logic dictates participation on your part.
I’ve read a number of your posts from the begining and I’ve noticed an underlying theme. Go back and see if you can spot it yourself, as it’s most prominent in Eve’s thread here.
These are some of your quotes:
Do you see a theme here? Now, perhaps you’re not the greatest at putting down into words what your mind is telling you. We can’t all have that ability. But at some point you need to say to yourself that if it’s that important to you, you should have some way of formulating thoughts into reasonable, logical arguments that make sense to those who disagree with you.
If I disagree with you, and your goal is to convert me, stopping at “you believe what you wish to believe and I’ll do the same” isn’t going to cut it. It’s my soul you’re trying to save, right? Well if I don’t believe, telling me that you believe and let’s leave it at that will NOT cut it. I’m not convinced. Now I’m burning in Hell because you couldn’t defend your faith.
My point is this: question everything. If you want to learn more, you need to question it. If you want to truly understand your beliefs, question it. Do not do as your friend above did and accept the preacher’s words as the Truth. Find out for yourself. Don’t accept the Bible’s words as the Truth either. Question that. Yes, it may very well be the word of God, but think how much stronger your belief would be if you questioned it, debated it, struggled with it, and then came back to that conclusion independently.
There are a number of strong Christians on this board who do exactly that. They question their belief constantly and it seems that their faith only grows stronger when they find the answers. Or their faith grows stronger when they realize that there IS no answer.
If you question everything, you end up in two places: 1) right back where you started, but with a much deeper understanding of why you’re there. An understanding that you can pass on to the unbelievers. or 2) somewhere else. Maybe, just maybe, you’ll find that the unquestionable Truth, really had a lower case “t.”
LOL. Now do you understand how you fundies come across?
Warrants repeating.
Anyway, His4ever, Jack Chick is the most hateful, bigotted, evil, ignorant, UNCHRISTIAN evangelist I’ve ever come across. So naturally, you come across as hateful, bigotted, and ignorant when you cite him as your authority on religion.
In any case, I don’t care what you believe. One more person thinking I’m going to burn for all eternity for not being Christian makes no never mind to me. It’s not as if it’s up to them, now is it?
But you’d better find someone else to cite if you want to be involved in GD. Jack Chick will not cut it.
Mr. Grendel, the words abomination and unnatural are straight from the word of God as I was quoting Scripture. So I guess you’re calling God hateful and evil?? He is the one who says it’s an abomination and unnatural. And using the f word and throwing your little hissy fits isn’t going to change that. You guys are something else is all I can say.
H4E’s behavior here perfectly exemplifies how fundamentalist Christianity is identical to devil-worship.
Christianity, in so far as I understand it, teaches love, compassion, and forgiveness. The Christian goal is the abnegation of the self and the conformation of one’s will to the will of God, as John 3:27-30 says,
H4e, has shown that her God is proud, spiteful, and cruel. Her God is a god devoid of compassion or charity; He is a deity of raw, merciless power who delights in the sufferings of those who cross Him. He is a God that prefers ignorance to knowledge and lies to truth. H4e may invoke the name of Jesus, but her deeds show her god is the Father of Lies.
She might want to read Matthew 25:31-46, and she may want to read C. S. Lewis’ The Last Battle, the final book of his Narnia series, to find out what happens to those who attribute to Aslan the deeds properly belonging to Tash.
>> Something I need to get off my chest
Can we see your chest please? Who knows, someone might convert or something.
I do read the Bible for myself and fyi I do not worship or follow Jack Chick. If I ever see anything in his tracts I disagree with I’ll stop using them. And by the way, I know you have the same right to disagree with me as I do with you. You can think so if you wish, but I don’t believe my opinions are based on flawed evidence. God’s word isn’t flawed and I happen to believe Thelma Greer. She grew up in a Mormon family, I think she ought to know what her parents taught her. And I don’t believe she’s a hostile ex-mormon. She loved (don’t know if she’s still alive) the mormon people, that’s why she wrote the book. I choose not to agree that her info is fraudulent. Or that the mormon documents included in her book are fraudulent. You can believe that if you want, I don’t.
See His4Ever it is only your opinion that Scripture == God’s actual word. There isn’t any proof. This is where you are getting in trouble with people. You are using your opinion as fact.
There are ways to interpret the Bible that are just as valid as yours. For instance some believe that even if God inspired the writing of it the pen was in the hand of humans, and we all know that humans will put their own agenda into anything they write.
I hope you stay and become willing to engage in actual debate and try to answer the hard question put to you. Even if you don’t change your mind you’ll at least have a better basis for your beliefs if they’ve been challenged.
H4E may also wish to meditate on the truth that Jesus forgave sins of the flesh, as He forgave the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11), but He saved his strongest condemnation for the scribes and teachers of the Law, who followed the letter of the law, but not its spirit.
The work of a Christian is to love, to heal, to console. Even if you believe that homosexuality is sinful, your job is to love the sinner and set a good example, but leave the judgements to God. God blesses and God condemns, not you. You are supposed to keep your eyes on God and be a vessel of His goodness and an example of holiness, like a city set on a hill.
H4E is a Pharisee, and she will earn the wrath of God for assuming His place.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 *
**
But that doesn’t mean that they get a free pass on spreading lies. And technically all freedom of speech means is that the government can’t go around stopping people from speaking out against it. Not that private institutions or individuals can’t work to shut up those who spread lies or hate about them.
And just because two people are both allowed to speak doesn’t mean that they both deserve to have the same weight ascribed to their words. The words of an ignorant person, or a liar, are not worth the same as those of an honest person.
You know, Mr. Kirkland, I’m getting quite tired of being called a liar tho I guess that’s your right. I’ll just have to thicken my hide as suggested. You can’t prove I’m a liar or have intentionally lied about anything. You stating that I’m a liar does’t make it so. I’ve heard all this drivel before. A Christian speaks up and says something is wrong because they believe God says it’s wrong and you take it as “you’re gay and I hate you”. I think you better learn different. I’m not going to say that something is right just to make you like me or to get you to stop calling me hateful. Think so if you want, I know it’s not true. Who are you to say I’m ignorant or a liar?? You just can’t stop the name calling can you?
[quote]
God’s word isn’t flawed and I happen to believe Thelma Greer. She grew up in a Mormon family, I think she ought to know what her parents taught her. And I don’t believe she’s a hostile ex-mormon. She loved (don’t know if she’s still alive) the mormon people, that’s why she wrote the book. I choose not to agree that her info is fraudulent. Or that the mormon documents included in her book are fraudulent. You can believe that if you want, I don’t.
**
But it’s only one book. Only an uneducated person thinks that one book has a complete and balanced view of a topic, especilly when it is a subjective memoir written with a didactic point.
Moreover, every Mormon here, all of whom know more about their faith than you do, are telling you that the Greer book is wrong. You are committing the sin of pride, or the sin of unmitigated chutzpah in your case.
You need to ask God’s forgiveness for your arrogance and dishonesty.
Since I’d hate to post as just another heathens, insulting you and suggesting you consider information from sources that aren’t even in the Bible, I won’t.
I’d like to share what The Bible says about something, specifically things that “THOU SHALT NOT DO” and I’m going to be completely oblivious to the point of your OP while I do so.
I’m sure it will be convincing as only The Bible can be. There’s no logic like medieval logic.
(From The King James Version. It’s a perfectly legible secondhand English translation of The Bible, any fool can read it. )
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things
This worldly age and with slacks and earings for men and women. And those vile wool blends too! Abomination, saith the Word of God!
Not to mention our blatantly judgemental court system, as well as your random free-lance judgemental fundie who can’t string two words together using independent thought. Inexcusable, I quite agree.
And, hey, let’s turn to what the Old Testament says that “Thou shalt Do” when you don’t agree about someone’s behavior when they’re trying to convert you to their religion. Seeing as being rude and hateful is so distasteful.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
:edges slowly away from the biblical literalist:
Also, what is this you’re “daring to disagree?” It’s a debate forum for crying out loud, that’s the freaking point, it’s what we do for entertainment! You aren’t a fucking pioneering Christian either, it’s been/being/will be done. Ever wonder why they’re called “Great Debates?” Because they go on and on and on and on and Aaaarg!
You started out saying a bunch of people here are an “abomination to God”, were they the first to go crying to the pit to complaining you were saying things they find rude and hatefu? No, they started discussing,ranting, (flaming in one case), making jokes, saying stupid things, saying smart things, saying mean things, saying kind things, saying the occasional incomprehensible thing
The usual, in other words.