Specific Star Wars Plot Points (MEGA-SPOILERS) I just want to be clear on this...

Cafe Society
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I know there are a lot of AOTC threads here, but I want this one to forget all about reviews, comments, suggestions, reactions to the acting and the love story, etc. etc.

Just the facts, ma’am.

(I know this should technically go in General Questions, but this is all about Star Wars, for chrissake, and Cafe Society is where all the expert movie geeks will be.) :stuck_out_tongue:

Last warning to those who didn’t read the title:
MAJOR PLOT POINT SPOILERS FOLLOW
DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN’T SEEN THE MOVIE YET

Tell me if this is correct:

Jedi Masters and their Padawans
Yoda trains Count Dooku (or is his name Tyrranus?)
Dooku in turn trains Qui-Gon Jinn
Qui-Gon Jinn trains Obi-Wan Kenobi
Obi-Wan Kenobi trains Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Kenobi trains Luke Skywalker (ep. IV)
Yoda trains Luke Skywalker (ep. V)

Coresponding Sith Lord Masters and Trainees
Darth Sidious trains Darth Maul
Darth Sidious trains Count Dooku
Darth Sidious trains Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
(perhaps the latter two should read “turns” or “becomes master of” rather than trains).

Of course, this assumes (and from all the other threads most everyone agrees) that Darth Sidous = Chancellor Palpatine = The Emperor.

As far as Palpatine’s master plan, am I missing anything here:

Starting back in ep. I, then-Senator Palpatine initiates his grand scheme by

  1. Killing (or causing to have killed) Jedi Sipho-Diaz and having Dooku impersonate him and order the Clone Army started (supposedly for the Jedi Council)

  2. Instigate the Trade Federation to go against the Republic (via whatever that Naboo embargo stuff was that I forget) in order to pose a threat to the Republic which allows him to get elected Chancellor

  3. Have Dooku instigate/rally systems to rebel against the Republic (maybe succeed would be a better term) and to coordinate their efforts and construct a droid army to threaten the Republic

  4. When the Clone Army is ready, have Senator Amadila assassinated (or perhaps knowing the assassination would be prevented, just the attempted assassination) to get her away from the Senate vote so that the threats to the Republic get him granted emergency powers, giving him initially the power to use the Clone Army and in the longer term to assume complete power, which he eventually uses to (almost) become dictator of everything and everyone, wiping out all the Jedi in the process, and in the beginning of ep. IV wiping out the last “remains of the Senate.”

  5. Encourages Anakin Skywalker’s ego, rebellious streak (and probably) forbidden love in order to get him to turn to the dark side

  6. Probably is responsible for the capture and torture of Anakin’s mother for the same reason (why else would the sand people want her if not paid to?) (and is it a coincidence that she dies in his arms, or is she kept alive specifically for him to find her and see her die?)

Actually, I don’t remember Jedi Tyrannus from the movie, but I keep seeing this name mentioned in all the other threads here. Is Dooku originally a Jedi known as Tyrannus and now after he’s broken away from the Republic and I suppose therefore broken away from the Jedi he’s taken the name Dooku? Is there a different explanation I may have missed?

What’s the deal with Boba Fett… I couldn’t help but notice his little laugh three or four different times; are they imitating a laugh we hear Boba Fett use in later episodes? I don’t remember, but maybe… Also, I don’t understand why it was important to have Boba Fett in this episode. My recollection is that he is used later as a plot device for Han Solo to need to flee Tatooine and so to reluctantly agree to take Luke and Obi-Wan off on their adventure that he gets pulled in to, and later for Luke to go to Jaba the Hutt’s in order to save him. I don’t remeber him being obsessed against the Jedi who killed his father. Was there some reason for this?

How much time is there between ep. II and ep. IV? Judging from the age difference of Obi-Wan (he seems about 30 in ep. II and about 80 in ep. IV) I would guess about 50 years. Yet Luke is only about 20 in ep. II. Does he not get born for 30 more years after Anikin and Padme are married? OK, if Obi-Wan is say, 40 in ep. II, does it take 20 years for Luke and Leia to be born? Or are they born and then frozen for 20 years? What? I would say the ages of Owen and Aunt Veru match these same time guesses. On the other hand, does it really take the Emperor 50 years to build the death Star that he clearly already has the plans for? Or just 50 years to gain enough power to get away with building it?

OK, I’m starting to ramble. I meant to just get the basic facts straight. Am I missing any other important plot points?

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<< Judging from the age difference of Obi-Wan (he seems about 30 in ep. II and about 80 in ep. IV) I would guess about 50 years. >>

80? You don’t know many 80-year olds, I’d imagine. His age is somewhat undeterminate, but he seems around 60-ish to me.

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Alec Guiness was 63, when he made Ep. IV. That would be about the age I pictured “Old Ben Kenaobi” too. However, if we make him 50+, which would surely be “old” for a 20 year old pilot-wannabe, then it works.

My guess at Time line, making beginning of saga year zero:

0: TPM, Sideous sets his plan in motion.
10: AoTC. Obi Wan is 30+. He’s now no longer the young hothead from TPM. Notice how Anakins hairstyle matches Obi’s from TPM in the new movie. Having become a full fledged Jedi Master, OWK now has a beard and can cultivate his own style.
??: Luke + Leia are born.
30-35: ANH: Luke is about 20 and the last part of the old republic fades away, leaving a small group of rebells. OWK is 50ish.
30-40: ESB + RoTJ.

This works on a timeline for clone wars, conception and birth of the twins, and Sideous taking full power and making the Republic a Feudalistic Empire.
My guess is that Ep. II will have some serious timecompression, to make all fit. Clonewar, Lovestory, hiding the twins, destruction of Jedi Council. How GL is gonna fit that in 2 hrs, is beyond me.
Maybe there’ll be Ep. 31/2?

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Boba Fett has a cult following, despite his brief appearance in the other movies, so I guess Ep V is a set-up to launch his character and motives into prominence for Ep VI.

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Several of the truly obsessed Star Wars fans have mentioned, on and off the Board, that the Palpatine might be Darth Sidious’s clone, from things they’ve read in books – essentially a puppet he can use.

Darth Tyrranus (sp?) seems to be Dooku’s Sith name – apparently the Sith take another name, perhaps to protect their identities.

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Hamish, that sounds familiar. At some point in AotC, didn’t they say that who ever ordered the clones also ordered one “unaltered” clone? So would that be a clone of Jango Fett or a clone of (mystery Jedi who ordered the clones)? Could be an unalterd clone for Palpatine.

Btw, there was never even the slightest question in my mind that Palpatine=Sidious. We already know that Palpatine=Emperor and I thought they made it pretty clear in TPM that Palpatine was also Sidious, what with the hood and identical chin and all.

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  1. I don’t really see a necessity for Sidious to have killed Jedi Sipho-Diaz, just that Sipho died and Sidious (or someone else) used his identity to make the clone order. Of course, that doesn’t mean that Sidious didn’t kill him.

  2. In addition to what you wrote, I’d point out my assumption - that this war is meant to eliminate all existing armies by pitting the droid army against the clone army. I’d guess that Sidious has another huge clone order in the works, which will clean up the leftovers after the Clone War and use to take over the galaxy.

I’d also like to point out what several others have mentioned in other threads, but gets ignored. I specifically remember a quick scene of the clones being trained. In one of the scenes, they are eating, and that batch looked just like Amidala’s consort, and NOT like Jango Fett. Any guesses or confirmations?

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OK, i’ve only seen the movie once so far, but I can pick out a few things

Yes, Dooku is Darth Tyrannus. Sideous refers to him as a such at the end. For more proof, there are two versions of his action figure, one with each name.

Minor quibble to RichardB’s timeline, I don’t think Dooku ordering the clones dates back to TPM. Dooku couldn’t have been a sith then. “Only two there are” at any one time. It was probably soon after, though.

Boba is the “unaltered clone”. Yes, there could be clones of other people as well, but Taun We the cloner says Jango REQUESTED AN UNALTERED CLONE FOR HIMSELF. Unaltered, the clone wouldn’t be mature, only about 10. Boba seems to be the only 10-year Jango is keeping for himself. Although they are no more official than I am, TheForce.net agrees with me:
http://www.theforce.net/episode2/characters/
http://www.theforce.net/humor/ has a pic of the clones eating. You’re right, they do look a lot like Capt. Typho. (see the previous link.) But they look more like Jango to me. (minus a few scars perhaps, and with longer hair.) I was convinced you were wrong, but now I’m not sure…

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The only reason I’m so adament about it is that my whole theatre started murmuring when that cafeteria scene was shown. And it’s not too far off the mark of possibilities, considering Naboo’s possible clone connection (Amidala and her handmaidens).

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I have a couple of questions about Count Dooku.

  1. Is this the single silliest Star Wars name ever?
  2. Considering Padme calls Anakin “Annie”, does Dooku’s significant other call him “Dookie”?
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Thanks for the clarification on the “unaltered clone” business. And the whole time I was wondering where Jango’s wife was. Duh.

As far as the clones eating lunch, I TOTALLY thought they were Amidala’s captain. My brother had to tell me they were Jango.

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Sometimes. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I think the name was derived from Count Dracula, which Christopher Lee played numerous times. Still it is kind of silly, but maybe he let his kids name characters again.

Or Dookie Howser?

Seriously, every stops calling Anakin Annie when they realize he’s no longer a kid. Didn’t work for me, though; people still call me Skotty.

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It would have helped if Lucas had shown us Jango Fett unmasked BEFORE the cafeteria scene.

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No, that honor probably belongs to “Elan Sleazebaggano”. Check out the IMDB entry for Attack of the Clones.

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I don’t think Sipho-Diaz was killing. It is how the Kimonians refer to Sidious. However, Obi-Wan thought they killed the Sith Lord in TPM, and probably thought Sidious was Maul who they killed 10 years earlier.

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If Obi-Wan thought they were talking about Maul, why would he say to Yoda and Mace, “I was under the impression he was killed before that?” Obi-Wan killed Maul himself–he would know whether he was dead or not.

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Well personally the thought of clones == Cap’n Typho never occured to me. The clones, Cap’n Typo and Jango Fett are all played by different actors, and I thought that the clones looked somewhat like Jango. When they explicitly said that the clones were of Jango, I never gave it a second thought. It makes no sense otherwise.

I also don’t see the deal with Count Dooku’s name. Yes I suppose it’s silly if you think about it and put it in the context of names from the real world. As if a name like Obi-Wan isn’t silly? And yes, Elan Sleazebaggano is worse than Dooku, but his name is never spoken.

As for the whole Sido-Dyas thing, well I don’t think we’re supposed to know just yet. I assume that the Jedi council will start investigating right after the end of the Episode II. What they do know is that Dooku is the Sith apprentice and Sidious is the master. They probably also figured that Maul was the old apprentice. They also know, but refuse to believe that Sidious is controlling the Senate. I’ll need to see it again to figure out if Sido-Dyas was real (and dead) or not, but I think either way, Sidious impersonated him.

Biggest gripes:
Anakin’s arm - I’m willing to believe that they can’t make organic or hybrid type prosthetics until Episode V, but why didn’t they reattach Anakin’s arm? It didn’t fall in a pit like Luke’s hand.

C-3PO - So he runs away/is stolen so that he can spend time with R2? The Lars’ don’t have a problem with that? It’s not like he did anything helpful. At least R2 saved them from the machinery (though that whole scene was unnecessary and probably put in for video game spin-offs).

Oh well, just MHO.

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OK… maybe Obi-Wan is not in his 80’s by ANH, but this still does not seem to tie in together properly.

The problem is in year “??” when Luke and Leia are born.

Obviously, this must fit somewhere in between year 10 (AoTC, Anakin and Padme get married, Obi-Wan is 30+) and what you have listed as year 30-35 (ANH, Luke is about 20. OWK is 50ish - even if I think 50ish is stretching it and I think 60ish would be more correct)

If Luke and Leia are born right at year 10, this leaves Obi-Wan at only 40+ during ANH. This is clearly not the case. For Obi-Wan to be 50ish they must be born in year 20 or so (10 years after AoTC), and for Obi-Wan to be 60ish they must be born in year 30 or so (20 years after AoTC). This would mean ANH is not in year 30-35, but in year 40-45 (if Obi-Wan is 50ish) or 50-55 (if Obi-Wan is 60ish).

I still think my original questions apply: Do Luke and Leia not get born for another 10 or 20 years, when Anakin/Darth Vader is 30 or 40? Maybe this does fit with the final ages of Darth and Obi-Wan: If Luke is born 10 years after AoTC, this makes Darth Vader 28 years when Luke is born, and 20 years later, in ANH, Darth Vader is around 50, and Obi-Wan is 60+. I guess I can buy that.

That would mean there is 10 years until Anakin fully goes over to the Dark Side (I’m assuming here that Padme will have nothing to do with him after he finally goes all the way over, probably dramaticized by a big battle against Obi-Wan), but she’s already pregnant and has broken away from when before the birth of the kids. One of whom (Luke) is “hidden” from Darth Vader with Vader’s Aunt and Uncle on his mother’s old residence on Tatooine (how this is hidden, I don’t know, but we’ll find that out two years from now) and the other one (Leia, whom Darth Vader doesn’t even know exists) getting placed with the Royal Family of Alderaan, where she’s brought up as a Princess.

Does all this fit?
Are the rest of my “facts” as stated in the OP correct?

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Well suppose this: Anakin and Obi-wan and Yoda can never figure out where the trouble is coming from. Anakin takes it on his own to pretend to be a double agent, over the objections of the remaining Jedi, and starts acting out. Sideous reveals himself in a scene where he goads Anakin into killing Dooku just like ROTJ, and Anakin is in way to deep before he knows it.