This thread wasn’t my best moment, I’ll admit. But it surely wasn’t spectrum’s either.
I wouldn’t have mentioned it, except that spectrum’s trying to claim that he only goes over the top when fighting on gay issues. That clearly isn’t the case.
Read this bullshit. Go ahead, read this bullshit that passes for “reasoned debate” in this day and age.
Just fucking try to imagine going through your life knowing that you were different, that you were wrong, and not understanding why. Imagine spending years trying to suppress it, trying to change it, trying to deny it. Imagine spending every night hating yourself, being ashamed of how you felt. And then imagine the process of finally realizing that it was all pointless, that there was no reason to hate yourself. Imagine the sheer fucking audacity of people to even suggest that you could change if you just tried harder. The very idea that you only brought all of your pain upon yourself.
Hell, I had it easy, relatively. I was never given electro-shock “therapy.” I have yet to be beaten up for being gay. I haven’t yet lost friends, either to prejudice or to disease. I’m an adult, I’m independent. I live in one of the most “gay-friendly” places on the planet. I don’t have to have a wife to whom I have to admit I’ve been lying. Or children that I have to explain everything to.
And still, it’s the worst fucking thing that’s ever happened to me. And not because I’m gay, but because I live in a society that thinks that being gay is a fucking problem.
I want the last 15 years of my fucking life back. I want to have been able to go through high school without having to constantly hide everything I was thinking and feeling. I want to go back and change every time I vehemently denied I was gay. I want to go back to every woman whose feelings I hurt and explain that there wasn’t anything wrong with her, it was all just feelings I wasn’t allowed to accept at the time. I want back the 5 desperately lonely years after I finally accepted I was gay but had decided I would never act on it because it was “wrong” and it would be okay as long as I just didn’t “act gay,” because then no one would know my horrible secret. I want back all the times I’ve been convinced I was going to die alone and unloved because who I loved was wrong. I want back the same friends I had before I came out, the friends who I could talk about who I was attracted to without having to watch them get uncomfortable and try to change the subject.
Fucking two-thousand and four.
What the fuck happened to the idea that “gay” meant “happy?”
Is there anyone here who still doesn’t “get it?”
Assuming the “get it” remark was a shot at me via the title of this thread, I’d like to understand where you got the impression that I didn’t get why spectrum was angry, or that I thought his anger was unjustified. All I asked, and even this I retracted because I thought it was unfair coming from the franchised, was why spectrum’s anger is manifested towards those who aren’t trying to force him to undergo electric shock therapy, and who don’t think it’s a problem that he’s gay.
No, that was most definitely not directed at you. I have been reading this thread and paying attention to what was said here, and you’re exactly right. That was a lot of leftover anger from another thread, directed at anyone who cared to listen, using the title of the thread to try and attempt an appropriate level of pissed-offedness.
If nothing else, I guess it’s another example of how an otherwise calm and rational person (I like to think) can get set off into a rage. Was this the appropriate audience for that? Probably not.
/mini hijack
Just happened to read your profile, SolGrundy.
Happy Birthday!
Carry on …
Well, the second time you freaked out on me, sure, it was over your interpretation of gay rights. The first time was over my defense of full-screen movies, and it was nearly as ugly as your freakout over gay rights. I ended up with the impression that you see the world in the most melodramatic terms possible, and like a character in a Swiss morality play can only hold one thought in your head at a time.
I don’t hold you as the poster child for gay rights, of course; your singular zealotry to your cause is thankfully not par for the course. You just annoy the shit out of me is all, and are not among the posters that I think discuss human rights (or full-screen movies, for that matter) with respect, integrity, or thoughtfulness.
Daniel
Well, if that’s the case I find that even more troubling. If someone has really thought about it and still comes to the conclusion that it’s valid to believe that homosexuality is wrong, then I have absolutely no common ground with that person. I have to believe that the only reason people can judge me and deny me my basic rights, is because they don’t know me and they haven’t ever really questioned the things they were taught and the culture under which they were brought up. The alternative is just hopeless.
I believe that there is one God, and that my path to God is through the teachings and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It’s as simple as that. The Bible says a lot of things, some of which I don’t believe – and I’ll get both Christians and anti-Christians telling me that it’s wrong for me to “pick and choose” which parts of the work I build my faith around.
I figure, let them criticize. I’ve already had my crises of faith, going back as far as when I was four years old and asked my parents how the story of Noah’s Ark could possibly be true. And then when I began learning about creation and evolution and saw that the creation story was best taken as allegory. And then again when I started to make friends who weren’t Christian, and saw that they were good, spiritual people who deserved heaven every bit as much as I do (if not moreso), and it was foolish to assume that they’d be denied it simply because they’d taken a different path to get there. After that, incorporating homosexuality into it wasn’t that great a leap. I don’t see why I should reject an entire belief system just because I don’t agree with a few of the elements of it; that to me seems extremist.
You are correct. Gay marriage is my pet cause now (for some reason; it’s not as if I have anyone particular in mind), so I manage to find a way to work mention of it into just about any topic, even when it’s unwarranted.
That’s a noble sentiment, sure. But I don’t see how one can have a “dialogue” when one side of the “disagreement” has a completely undefensible position. matt_mcl put it much better than I’ll ever be able to: our basic human rights are simply not something that reasonable people can disagree about.
If someone wants to believe that homosexuality is wrong, then that’s his right. And hopefully, by fighting ignorance and being civil and living by example, I can get him to rethink that belief. That is a disagreement. But if someone wants to take that belief and then mandate how I am supposed to live my life, deny me the same rights extended to other people, or even try and cause me not to exist, then that’s no time to be civil. That isn’t a disagreement, that’s just wrong.
Well, I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I’ve discussed it with homosexuals (not often) and they understand my position. As a Christian it’s difficult to overlook words that explain that it is unacceptable because it is unnatural.
But, how should or does that affect my dealings with homosexuals and my thinking about legislation about them? This is a very difficult question for me.
My experience with homosexuals is that they’re pretty much the same as anyone else, no more or less moral or smart, or even sensitive. Incidentally, that particular portrayal really pisses me off. For Gods’s sake, I’M the most sensitive guy in the world!
So we’re down to leglislation, and the very fact that I am discussing it is convincing many of you of my listen-worthiness. Frankly, I just don’t know.
Homosexual marriage seems a bizarre thing, but many bizarre things are not legislated against (prostitution comes to mind). Okay, maybe bizarre isn’t the right word, but the Bible is certainly not in favour of intercourse with a hooker.
So, that leaves me with the right of homosexuals to adopt children. I’m sort of against that (I suppose for the “non-natural” reason) but then again with 50% of marriages ending in divorce (not to mention abusive fathers), is that any more unnatural than two men or two women raising a kid?
So I suppose I wouldn’t oppose homosexual adoption, although I have some reservations on the grounds of giving the kid a fair chance, in terms of the teasing they might get. But that doesn’t seem a particularly stronmg argument either.
So I’m left with homosexual priests. Well, this gives me problems, but not essentially the problems you might expect. I don’t believe in priests or vicars at all. The Bible refers to a priesthood of all believers and warns us not to call any man (sic) father, leader or teacher (going from memory).
Groups of believers need some kind of leadership (“elders”?), but the track record of churches in this regard is poor. Leaders tend to be highly autocratic and as far from Jesus as is possible in many situations.
But, whether we’re talking priests, vicars or elders, I cannot see a place for homosexuals. Because it is not compatible with the faith.
Unnatural? How so? You DO know that people do not choose to be gay, right? And that homosexuality IS indeed found in nature, among many species?
(And even if it were not, LOADS of things are “unnatural” that are good, and loads of “natural” things are bad. So this argument falls flat.
Exactly. They’re just like you or me, except that they’re attracted to the same sex, rather than the opposite.
Prostitution IS against the law. So what’s your point? Prostitution has fuck all to do with gay marriage.
Bullshit. Unnatural? So? It isn’t about what’s “natural” but what works. Would you rather have a child raised by an abusive mother and father, or a loving, compassionate gay couple?
No, it’s not. Not at all. Kids get teased for a lot of reasons. I was teased because my dad’s a mortician. (Yeah, it’s real fun when people ask you if your family fucks corpses every day…and yeah, we DO have coffins in our house! Funny!)
Well, then if you’re not Catholic, what does it matter? It’s not for you to decide. And since (as of now, anyways), priests are recquired to be celibate, their sexuality is moot.
As in, using their religion to make laws in a secular nation?
Maybe, maybe not. But that’s for that particular religion to decide. It has fuck all to do with gay rights as protected by the GOVERNMENT. The Catholic Church doesn’t need the government’s approval on who they can, or can’t make a priest.
Likewise, the government shouldn’t need the Catholic Church’s blessing on their laws regarding gay rights.
Jesus. And you ask why we patronize you?
Guinastasia, the Bible calls homosexuality unnatural. That’s what I was referring to, or citing, if you like. And I agree with the Bible in this regard. Whether some animals are practising homosexuals or not was not my point.
Regarding the rest of what you wrote, I actually think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength.
PS Prostitution isn’t illegal where I come from (er…so I’m told). It’s soliciting that’s illegal.
Doesn’t it relate to your point, however? If there are animals who are “practicing homosexuals”, doesn’t that pretty much tell you that homosexuality is natural, and that any source which claims otherwise must necessarily be in error, at least regarding that point?
bodswood, I’m sure the bible would have said: Watching ‘survivor’ shows on TV is unnatural. Or reading an ‘electric’ screen, instead of a book. Or keeping your food in the fridge.
In other words: Isn’t the bible a bit out of date?
And I thought people could ‘interpret’ the bible in any way they see fit?
You know, bodswood can think whatever the hell he wants (as far as I’m concerned) as long as he supports equal rights and is not mean to anyone. I learned a while ago that it isn’t what people think in their heads that is so important, it’s what they do. And while I’m sure many of you will rip bodswood a new one, it seems to me that he’s bordering on having lukewarm feelings towards gay marriage and gay adoption. So to me, that’s what’s most important. Not what he thinks is “unnatural” or not. I ain’t the thought police. I don’t care what he thinks privately.
Some years ago I had a really, really bad and depression patch in my life. Anyway, the thing that I remember from that very bad phase in my life was this: if people couldn’t help me, I wished they would just shut the hell up. That was the biggest problem. Not what they thought, but what they did and said to me. I was in a bad way and I didn’t give a shit at that point what they thought about me, whether I was right or wrong, whether I was a loser or not—all I wanted was for them to stay out of my way if they couldn’t help.
There’s a relevant point nestled in there, I know it! 
Discussion just warming up and we’re about to go off the air…
“Watching ‘survivor’ shows on TV is unnatural. Or reading an ‘electric’ screen, instead of a book. Or keeping your food in the fridge.”
No!! Just watching Survivor - or The Amazing Race.
Yosemite, I think you’re spot on. Never a truer word and all that. What people think and what they say even (to some extent) pales into insignificance with what they do.
And this is meant to be the pit, and I can’t rant and rave. And I’m forever being told off by the wife for swearing…
Give it time, though!
Coin, I forgot to ask in all the excitement. Which animals are gay??
Bit off topic, no?
Like I stated before, I don’t hate spectrum. But he hates me. He hates me to the point where he expressed a hope that I be beaten, raped and sodomized by a group of American soldiers.
That little outburst bought him a warning from the moderators, a warning that, from what I’ve seen, he’s abided by. But he’s never apologized to me for that outburst, which wasn’t in a gay-related thread.
What is that a sign of, if not seething anger? And how can I take him seriously, on any topic, when he’s calling for me to be raped and sodomized?
Outbursts like this do not advance his arguments one inch. Spectrum must understand that he loses credibility here every time he loses his temper.
And the Bible also refers to eating shellfish as an abomination as well–are you working to outlaw Red Lobster?
Sorry, pal, if you wish to obey a bunch of rules dreamed up by Bronze-age shepherds, you go right ahead, but stop insisting that adherence to Levitical prohibtions apply to anyone but you. Your religion has no bearing on my civil rights in a secular nation.
Have you never been to the Primate house at the zoo? Why just a few weeks ago I was at the Saint Louis Zoo in the Primate house and there were two males of some species of monkey going at it right in front of the gathered crowd. One topped the other. Then the bottom turned around and groomed the top. It was quite tender. Several parents gasped and covered their children’s eyes. They were shocked - SHOCKED I tell you - because the display said explicitly that there were only males in that enclosure.
Thanks, matt_mcl. Bodswood, there you go. As you can see, it’s not at all rare for animals to engage in sexual activity with other animals of the same gender. So how can it be unnatural to do so? Doesn’t that suggest that same-gendered sexual activity is entirely natural? If the creator of the universe disapproves of this kind of sex, why did he inflict this kind of sexual desire on so many of his creations?