START, get a LiveJournal.

Shut the fuck up on the boards about his tales of teen cruelty, is what I meant. And it’s not just a matter of what I don’t like; it’s the effect he has on the boards in general. This is the second time I’m clarifying that. Are you going to believe me now, or are you just going to stick to your original interpretation?

If other people enjoy, or at least don’t mind, going over the same ground over and over and over again, then they can do that. I’m just saying that I think START is setting up “let’s you and him fight” situations, and I wanted to alert people to this pattern. Go ahead and flame back; I can’t stop you from doing that either.

eleanorigby, nobody is dumping on START. Nobody is being mean. I noticed a pattern in his posts, and I called it to others’ attention. As for his brother, sure, I’d like to be caring and compassionate. But I don’t remember anyone saying, “Fuck START’s brother” or anything like that. The timing was just awfully interesting, that’s all.

And this:

is actually a good point, though not necessarily in your favor. START has been describing situations that many Dopers experienced when they were teenagers. Except that many of us were on the receiving end of bullying and harassment, not the giving end, as he claims to be. Damn right he’s going to get a negative reaction. And I strongly suspect he knows that.

Ooh! Now I know what I’m writing on my nametag at the next Dopefest!

Rilchiam --people accusing him of making up his brother dying is NOT dumping on him? I would hate to see dumping then.

Remind me to never bring my grief and losses here.

Has he acted like a shit at times? Yes-I am no Start apologist.

I wonder how long it takes for any of us to stop a destructive habit and one that is not concrete like smoking or whatever. IMO, he falls back into the same behavior patterns probably because even despite all the step family stuff and death etc, he has received no counselling, that I can tell. As for the bullying stuff–Laura lost all my sympathy when she pulled no punches on him.

I frankly don’t care what kind of bullies did whatever to whomever in HS here-noone is doing any good by perpetuating the cycle. It is too bad if his threads bring up old, painful memories, but those are issues of the poster who is upset by them. By all means, point out the errors in his choices, but it doesn’t have to be in such a nasty way. Is Start to be held accountable for all the pain some here felt in HS? How irrational is that?

If anything, his continuing to post is evidence of his naivete. Who would put themselves out there for all this abuse, unless they were truly clueless?

Even if he is complete jackass(I’m not saying he is(–why stoop? I don’t get it.

If you don’t like what he posts, don’t read it. I see no lowering of the bb d/t his posts. People come, contribute and leave for various reasons–I doubt Start has anything to do with anyone’s decision to leave. (who would be swayed by a teenage boy’s fumbling thru adolescence? Get a grip, folks)

Point has already been made, but there is that bit about negative attention still being attention… :wink:

You’re unfamiliar with the “attention whore” and “troll” concepts, apparently.

eleanorigby, you might also not know some of the board history (of which I was only privy to after I started posting here as well), but from it I understand that many Dopers may be wary of these sort of situations when they are closely followed by a death. Of whatever sort. I believe some felt betrayed in a sense, over the circumstances surrounding the demise of WallyM7 (I hope I have the name right and that I don’t get lynched for having mentioned it). Whether the veracity of the claims were true or not, I think there was much hurting going on, on both sides. Maybe some more hard-line feelings have developed out of that. Just a thought.

And Pythian Habenero, I completely understand and you’re welcome. I simply hate to see such a cool user name go to waste.

Actually, yes I am.

But seeing as how I alluded to NOT giving him attention, if you indeed think he may be one of the above, and yet he has (yet another!) 2 page thread all about him…I would say that there are others here not clear on the concept.
faithfool -my mind doesn’t really work like that. I dont’ mindfuck with people, so tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. My point is that even if he is a complete tool and a troll–better to have shown our better sides, eh?
YMMV.

But I thought you liked knitting!
What?

I heartily endorse this concept. As one who has several times been accused of attention whoring merely for having gotten a tad too caught up in discussions[sup]*[/sup], or accused of irrelevantly bringing up aspects of my character which no one particularly wants to hear about when in fact I considered them entirely relevant to the topic at hand[sup]**[/sup], I am in accord with the idea of extending the benefit of the doubt wherever such a benefit may be extended.

:smiley: Well, today is my day for the words “thank you”, it seems. Thanks for liking the name so much - it’s inspired by a long and complicated thought process involving the Ender’s Shadow subseries, the online comic Digger, and this lovely creature. I purposefully leave the thought process itself unsaid, to better facilitate your investigating the first two components in order to come up with the train of thought yourself, because both such components are immensely cool.

[sub]*Link to said discussions provided on request, and let it be known that that “tad” is somewhat of an understatement.[/sub]
[sub]**You may request a link to this one until you develop a repetitive stress injury, but I’m not giving it. Some things deserve to stay buried. Plus the thread in question is riddled with photographs of scantily clad women.[/sub]

What is it you’re doing when you say this about Elizabeth Smart?

So you need more info on the Elizabeth Smart case than what has been accepted by Utah law enforcement, her parents, and their lawyers. But I’m dumping on START because I don’t think anonymous posts on a message board are proof that a boy died. :dubious:

I usually always do too, much to my detriment. However, I wanted to offer that up as a suggestion as to why the opinions may be that they are. I also don’t like to see really compassionate people taken in over something for the sheer hell of it… like in the case of a person trolling. Otherwise, I think we’re both on the same page but with different approaches.

Pythian: :smiley: :smiley:

I understand the consistency there - at least, I think I do. Anonymous posts on a messageboard which appear inconsistent with each other or one’s worldview can be doubted, especially when they also appear to be too conveniently placed. With the Elizabeth Smart case, neither point was particularly more consistent with itself or one’s worldview than the other.[sup]*[/sup]

[sub]*Now, I don’t actually have any info on the case not obtained through this messageboard and/or vaguely recalled news reports, so I can’t substantiate that idea. But I can certainly put forth the concept.[/sub]

Cheesecake! I missed out on these in making my last post, and this board is bereft of an edit function! Yet I’d simply love to know what you’re grinning about! Whatever shall I do? I know! I’ll make a double post involving more exclamation marks than any sane human being should have cause to use at one time! That should help me!

Do you understand what the difference is between you and START when it comes down to it? You’ve never given anyone any cause to suspect that you weren’t what you said you were or were making up stories in your posts. And I’d like to note that NONE OF US said any of this when that thread was new, because we knew there was a chance we were wrong, and because we knew that crapping in someone’s mourning thread, if there was a chance of us being wrong, was a very bad idea. Apparently a fair number of us thought the timing was awfully convenient, though, coming immediately after a thread in which START got his ass handed to him and could reasonably be seen as desperate to foster some sympathy. It’s been at least six months since then (I can’t be arsed to go back and check the dates) and in the intervening time START has changed his style not one iota.

The reason no one would probably even consider that you were lying about the death of your (mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, etc) if you posted about it is that you don’t set off the “wrongness factor”. Hell, I posted about my father’s death 3 1/2 years ago and got nothing but sympathy and good wishes. I seriously doubt there was anyone sitting around in their homes thinking, “I’ll bet his father never even died…he’s just looking for sympathy!” You know why? Because I a) never wrote long-ass posts about how much of a jerk I was and now I’m trying to change pat me on the back please (until the next I’m such a jerk but now I’m changing pat me on the back please post) and b) I didn’t post it the day after I’d done some major damage to my reputation here by trying to weasel out of taking responsibility for either stealing from my employer or defending a “friend” who did.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with eleanorigby on this one. If you don’t like him or his threads, and you think he’s a liar, then you should not read or respond to him. You guys sound like those people who protest when a television program they think is violent or overtly sexual is on TV. It’s pathetic.

I don’t understand how so many seemingly intelligent adults allow themselves to become some emotionally entangled in these things. The SDMB, like any other thing on the internet, should enrich your life, not become it. It really makes me question the emotional maturity of many of the people here. Anytime somebody brings up anything that can be interpreted as, or distorted into something controversial, they are bombarded by comments from angry bitter manchildren who excoriate the person with their most cutting insults. You think your cat should be declawed? Don’t worry, someone will soon explain to your why you are ignorant pond scum who practices animal cruelty. You think the Iraq war was a good idea? Someone will soon show you just how much of an war mongering redneck you are. Do you think the issue of bullying is overstated in public school? Well then you are sociopath who is personal responsible for ruining the lives of millions of children by promoting schoolyard assaults. It’s like walking though a minefield sometimes. That’s not to say that I haven’t found myself in such circumstances, but I go on with my real life afterward. You guys hold an online grudges like schoolchildren. Don’t you have other better things to remember aside from START’s thread history? Wouldn’t you be better served dedicating the time and energy it takes to hate someone’s online persona toward your family, job, and/or friends?

I don’t know if it’s just that there is a disproportionate amount of fragile and reactionary people here, but I think you guys need to go outside and experience life more often. Life’s too short to allow your mood to be influenced by something as insignificant as someone’s (who you’ve never met) behavior on a messageboard.

eleanorigby, brickbacon, if you’d care to offer a counterargument to Rilchiam’s point, please do so.

If all you want to do is post stuff like, “oh you’re a bunch of meanies!!!111one!” then I remind you that this is the Pit and there isn’t going to be a lot of sympathy and flowers here, seeing as, you know, START’s being pitted. If pitting bothers you that much, why not follow your own advice and not read and/or post to pit threads? Or maybe you can find some CareBears {{huggy}} forum where you’ll feel more comfortable?

A little harsh, I think. I can see where they’d feel uncomfortable with this if they’re not picking up the same vibe we are, but I’m more than hesitant to start with the carebears stuff. There IS a place for civility and courtesy and being nice, and I agree the Pit ain’t it, but no need to be dismissive of their concerns like that.

Ineffectual advice for bullying the world over. Ignore them, keep out their way, don’t get involved. :rolleyes:

I don’t think START is lying. He may not explain himself very well and he may elaborate on occasion. But I don’t think he’s lying. And even if he was lying, no-one here has the slightest proof of it, and the accusations getting flung are pretty sick. In short, I see nothing he’s done deserving of this treatment and it’s all just another excuse for some people to exercise their outrage glands and throw some weight about.

Something they be more profitably doing over real stuff in their real life, as brickbacon suggests.

Well, in my last attempt at a meaningful post I forgot which side I was trying to explain, so I’m not sure if my words are particularly valid anymore, but let me try to give a more or less impartial perspective on the various sides of this thread.

On the one hand, we have people who are pitting START for, er, starting [sub]cough[/sub] to look like a liar. They have some valid base for their point. Perhaps someone should inform START that he is being pitted, as I don’t recall seeing him in this thread as of yet. Then again, I’m making this post while not wearing my glasses, so perhaps I just missed it due to excessive myopia.

On the other hand, we have people who are trying to say that START is not and has never been a liar, and that it is insensitive of the on-the-one-hand people to make this accusation in light of the fact that he recently posted about the demise of his brother. Well, while I respect the idea that his brother may have died (I withhold coming to a conclusion on the veracity of this), the fact that he posted it is no reason to hold off on wondering whether or not it’s true.

On the gripping hand[sup]*[/sup], we have people who seem to be taking the opportunity of this thread to dig into other posters. While this is the Pit and personal attacks are the norm, perhaps such things could go in threads of their own and leave this thread to a discussion of its actual topic.

In summation, I think there isn’t enough info to conclusively tell if START is a fibber. Certainly writing style is no indication of age and little of temperament. As for the supposed convenience of circumstances relating to the brother’s-death post, again, there is nothing conclusive. I remain unconvinced by either side until such time as someone comes up with a logical breakdown of events that really says something other than “Look, his life is a sympathy sponge and he hasn’t stopped being an ass yet! Liar!” or “No wait, that can’t be! He’s a totally great guy beset by circumstances beyond his control!”

[sub]*Read A Mote in God’s Eye if you don’t get it.[/sub]

I’d say that’s a pretty safe bet.

(italics mine)

There is your answer, jayjay . I think he needs some help. Frankly, his home situation sounds less than ideal. I think Start is a lonely, immature, reactionary and mildy self-destructive teen. I know alot of teens just like him. Ridiculing him and dumping on him is counter-productive and pointless. And for all it’s the Pit–somethings should not be bandied about. The cracks about his lying about his brother are too far. His references to his brother have all seemed sincere to me. Have none of you suffered a loss? It comes and goes in waves and effects you in ways that you can not foresee.

Example: I found myself crying in my son’s French class(parent’s night) 2 months ago–because of the loss of my sister last August, who was fluent in French. I went in with no thought of her whatsoever and completely lost it, 9 months after her death. And I am 42. I expect inconsistencies and irrationality in this kid–he’s a teen and a fragile one at that. Her aunt’s death has effected my daughter (15) in more ways that I thought.

As an adult, I have some perspective and understanding re: grief (and all too much experience)–as a teen, Start has none. Most likely, he has no idea why he does some of the things he does. I see in his 180 degree re: dissing Laura and now wanting to date her a longing for some kind of connection, affectionate and physical. It is sad and predictable. Laura probably has the same feelings. I can only shake my head, because both most likely will be hurt, but only Start will be eviscerated here. He shows too much, admits too much, shares too much. He is dying for approval, but will take any attention he can get. He needs limits and guidance-not snark. Just my opinion.

I think the vehement visceral response to Start tells more about those who are so upset and less about him. Again, I find myself quoting myself, an odd position to be in.

Thank you, **brickbacon ** and futile gesture for amplifying my thoughts so well.
Rilchiam -you are mixing up your threads. You will either have to make your linking of Smart’s thread to Start’s thread (only one letter off!) stronger or desist.
I see no commonality between Start’s thread and the Utah case.

I have said my piece and I hope that Start reads this and takes some of the more compassionate input to heart. Change is glacial in everyone-and difficult to stick to. I hope he does better. The initial suggestion that he get a livejournal is an excellent one. I would suggest a private journal, though, where he can post his thoughts and not lay himself out to so much negative feedback. And he should talk to a guidance counselor at school or a pastor or similiar.

Off soapbox now. :slight_smile: