Starving Artists thinks attempted rape is not "all that serious"

To the degree that I “whine” about your posts it’s because of your habit of taking a sentence here and a snippet there, often from posts quite some time removed from each other, then stitching them into some sort of narrative of your own imagination which you then attribute to me.

Fair point, to a point. You are correct in that you didn’t say anything about which side I was on when you posted your links, but it’s fallacious to conclude from those posts that I’m being fed a constant stream of right-wing media propaganda which then informs my posts. Virtually nothing I post comes from outside sources. The fact is I could probably write scripts or talking points for those shows myself. :smiley:

Not in the slightest.

When I quote remarks from various different posts of yours, conscientiously separated by space and/or the inserted ellipses […] that seem to bother you so much (and often linked to your entire original post as well), that’s not “stitching them into some sort of narrative”, or in any way misrepresenting them as any kind of single continuous statement on your part. That’s just letting your own words on a particular topic speak for themselves.

If you believe that any post of mine is actually misrepresenting the clear intention of any statement of yours (as I would be if, for example, I selectively quoted the above sentence as something along the lines of “I […] whine […] about […] you”, then feel free to explain exactly what you think is deceptive about it, and/or report it to the mods.

But the mere fact of accurately quoting different remarks of yours, and using ellipses to demarcate them, does not in itself constitute misrepresentation or deception about your meaning. To be honest, Starving Artist, your posts are frequently so numerous, long, digressive and rambling that it would be impossible to have any sort of discussion about them in finite time without excerpting the individual parts I’m taking issue with.

Indeed. And were people attempting to carry on today as though an upper respiratory infection was the most horrible thing ever and on par with emphysema and cancer I would still aver that comparatively it isn’t that big of a deal.

Part of the confusion probably comes from the fact that the behavior I referred to when talking about my youth wasn’t considered sexual assault, and it was within that context I made my comments about coping and so forth. This is not to say I don’t consider coping and perspective abilities to be positive things to develop these day. In my opinion much of the trauma induced by things such as what allegedly happened to Ford is the result of the victimhood mentality promoted by the left these past decades. Were this not so, the women and girls I spoke of who handled such instances with relative aplomb and then went on about their lives as if nothing had happened would not have been able to do so. It should be obvious that when women were able to routinely blow off such instances up to the late sixties and be unaffected by them psychologically that the event itself is not responsible for the trauma today’s women feel in encountering the same type behavior. And the difference is that women of today have been taught and encouraged to think that such instances are terrifying events that change their lives forever and in ways from which they never fully recover. I’ve seen people talk about the deaths of beloved children or spouses twenty and thirty years in the past who don’t carry on the way Gloria Allred’s Cosby victims did in her press conferences, or the deeply traumatized way Ford is behaving at the Kavanaugh hearings.

Imagine a woman who receives a cut to her arm in 1960. Then imagine a woman who gets a cut in her arm today. They’ve both been injured and in the same way.

Now consider a woman 1960 who gets drunkenly accosted at a party in the way Ford says she was and this woman blows it off with the thought that this particular guy is just an asshole and gets on with her life positively unscathed by the incident.

Now consider a woman today, of whom Christine Ford would be a good example, who encounters an identical occurrence as the woman in 1960, but she’s forever changed by the event. She flees the part of the country where it occurs. She has in the back of her mind constantly and is driven to achieve and succeed academically and in life generally as a way to overcome the horrific experience inflicted upon her 'lo those many years before, and yet even now and having achieved all her accomplishments, she still can’t escape the trauma of that night.

Both women have experienced the same “cut,” but which comes away from it with a better life? And to what do you attribute the sudden difference in the way they come away from it?

Clearly it’s because women have been taught to react this way by leftist victimhood ideology, starting in the late sixties.

Part of this, in my opinion, is the result of leftists who seek to villainize men as part of the women’s equality movement. The more that women can be made to feel victimized and the more they can blame men for it, the more angry they get and the more inspired they become to join the revolution.

It’s old-line commie dogma that to get people to join your revolt, you must first get them angry. And what better way to get women angry than to convince them that men have ruined their lives now and for evermore, and what better avenue to achieve this than through the universal experience of sex?

Probably the one who has at least a chance of being taken seriously, rather than the one who would be guaranteed to be blamed and slut-shamed for something she had no control over.

Shutting up about it does not mean that a victim is “unscathed”. I remember every instance of assault that happened to me. Just because I didn’t go on tv or have to give evidence about it doesn’t mean I was “unscathed”.

Nobody has a right to assault (touch, without permission) anybody else. Nobody is required to just suck it up, shut up about it and put up with it. Women speaking up about assaults on them has nothing to do with “leftists”. It’s that their RIGHTS are no longer ignored because of antiquated ideas like yours that they are fair game to do with as an offender pleases.

And you don’t seem to get that.

I am not a fan of “reality” shows, but they should have one where they gather the Starving Artists of this world and assault them on a regular basis, treat them like an object, isolate them, vilify them, ignore what they say, lecture them as to what a liar they are, etc etc and see whether they are still prepared to express an opinion that being attacked is somehow “ok” just because it wasn’t a “serious attack”.

:dubious: “Accosted”? No, what Ford says is that she was physically pinned down and groped and that her attacker attempted to pull her clothes off and stifled her attempted screams so forcefully she was afraid he might inadvertently suffocate her.

Being approached with a remark like “Hey [hic] shweetie, let’sh you’n’me fuck” is being “drunkenly accosted”. Being pinned down and groped by someone who’s trying to pull your clothes off and stifling your screams is being sexually assaulted.
And you seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of older women in the current #MeToo movement are describing as traumatic and frightening incidents of sexual assault and harassment from before the late 1960s that certainly didn’t leave them “unscathed” or “unaffected psychologically”, even when they were far less serious than actual rape.

For example, here are some accounts of such incidents from women now in their mid- to late seventies:

Starving Artist, it is mere wishful thinking on your part to imagine that young women who were sexually harassed and assaulted before the late 1960s just routinely shrugged it off and “got on with their life” without experiencing any psychological “trauma” from it. They may have concealed or suppressed the trauma they felt because they knew people around them would have been unsympathetic or indifferent, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

What you repeatedly fail to understand is that it doesn’t take any tricks or propaganda to “get” women angry about being sexually abused by men, even in eras where such abuse is conventionally kept secret. Being sexually abused by men makes women angry, even if they sometimes suppress that anger for a very long time.

One way to look at this - the ‘Overton Window’ for sexual behavior back then was very different. Just look at the movies of the time, which celebrated panty raids, ripping clothes off women in public, spying on them in the shower, etc. And it worked both ways - in "Risky Business’ Rebecca DeMornay was a prostitute who intentionally seduced young high school boys in order for her filthy pimp to steal their families blind. And what was the message of the story? Basically, that because she was hot it was all good. The young high school kid and his underage friends got laid by beautiful women, and the goods were returned, so no harm, no foul.

I never did anything like what was alleged Brett Kavanaugh did - I was too shy back then to even ask girls out, let alone try to get them in a bedroom at a party. But it DID happen all the time. Girls would get drunk, guys would get drunk, there would be handsyness and kissing, and suddently the two would go off to someone’s bedroom. If a guy tried to go too far it wasn’t seen as sexual assault if he stopped when she protested - it was considered to be ‘fresh’. This was an era when feminism didn’t say women were fragile flowers who must be treated with kid gloves, but that women were as tough and horny as men and could look after themselves. If a guy grabbed a woman’s ass or snuck up and hugged her from behind, he might merit a slap, but the cops would not be involved. If a movie showed a bunch of creeps sneaking into the locker rooms to ogle naked girls, the result wasn’t arrest - it was usually something like the women figuring out a way to get revenge.

If you didn’t live through that era as a teenager, or if you lived a very sheltered childhood, you probably don’t understand.

Those aren’t the rules today, and that’s a good thing. Looking back at the time, at the culture, it’s pretty obvious that it was screwed up. Hell, I remember drinking at JUNIOR high school dances, and I remember one time when a friend showed up with a couple of joints. We asked him where he got them, and he said, “My parent’s stash”. The teacher at the door to the dance found them, and he just confiscated them - didn’t kick us out, didn’t call our parents. End of story. Except he and the other teachers probably smoked them later. My high school had smoking rooms, and one of my junior high school yearbooks has a picture of our principal wearing a T-shirt that had a green monster giving the finger, and it said, “Eat Shit and Die.” In the picture he is surrounded by laughing 12-15 year old kids. It was a very different time.

The late 70’s and early 80’s were like that. And as a result, I don’t think such activities carried the same kind of trauma they would carry today in an era were such behavior is very unusual.

As an example, consider someone who grew up in a place where there was constant fighting. This person has been in a dozen scraps before. One day he’s walking down the hall, and he gets sucker punched. So he gets up and goes after the person who did it, and they have a good scrap, and it’s over. Now consider someone who comes from a gentle family and a good school where violence is rare, and gets the same sucker punch. Who do you think is going to be more traumatized by it?

Note that I’m talking about sucker punching in school and groping at a party that goes nowhere - not assault with a deadly weapon or attempted rape.

The point being that when you consider the character of someone based on what happened 35 years ago, you have to do so by considering the norms and context of the time. And you also have to consider that he was 17, and people change mightily between 17 and 25, as their brains finish developing.

The fact that Kavanaugh does not have a chain of accusers going the more recent past, or even people admitting that he was kind of skeevy when they clerked for him, means that whatever he did at 17 is not representative of who he is today.

That’s assuming he did it. I find Dr. Ford completely unconvincing. She claimed she needed a delay because she was afraid to fly. Then she admitted to flying all the time. She, a Ph.D in psychology, claims to have only a vague notion of what a polygraph machine is. She claims she had no idea who paid for the test. Her memory is selectively vague - she is 100% certain that the Kavanaugh assault happened and that he was the person, but she can’t remember the year it happened, how it ended, who drove her home, what street the house was on, whose house it was, or pretty much any other details that might be used to corroborate her story. The few details she did give have been contradicted by other witnesses. She said her lifelong friend was with her at the party - her friend legally testified that she remembers no such thing. She said that Kavanaugh’s friend was there. He legally testified that he was not. No one else questioned can remember this party, or that anything like that happened at any party they could remember. And you have to know that the Democrats tried really, really hard to find someone.

The charitable explanation is that the Democrats went fishing for anyone they could find who would say something bad about Kavanaugh. The fact that they had to go all the way back to his high school days before they could find anyone at all says that this was a pretty difficult task. Kavanaugh on the other hand produced reams of testimonials from women who have known him or worked with him, all saying he’s a perfect gentleman. His ex-girlfriends still speak up for him and say he was a perfect gentleman - something you usually don’t see in someone with a pattern of assaulting women.

So the charitable conclusion is that Dr. Ford had a memory of an unpleasant event at a party, and someone planted the notion in her head that it must have been Kavanaugh. There’s a long history of ‘recovered memories’ being used this way, only to discover that were false. Then she was immediately surrounded by Democrat-provided lawyers who most likely proceeded to work with her to say as much as she could without triggering a perjury charge. Hence the inability to remember any details which could be falsified. I suspect the same thing happened with Ms. Ramirez, who only ‘remembered’ what happened after six days of coaching from a lawyer provided for her, and who has been very careful to say that it might not have been Kavanaugh, but someone who looked like him. All very carefully parsed to not say anything that could land her in court on charges.

Then we have the little problem that Diane Feinstein sat on this allegation until the hearings were over. Why? You don’t suppose she was worried that the story wouldn’t hold up through a full two month examination? If the important thing is to have an FBI investigation, why didn’t she turn the evidence over to the FBI two months ago, while there was still plenty of time to corroborate it?

To me, I think what happened is that this was a hail-mary - a last ditch weapon she held, hoping to never have to use it, but then it looked like Kavanaugh was going to go through, so she pulled the last rabbit out of a hat. If Dr. Ford is telling the truth that she did NOT want to go public and was promised anonymity, then isn’t Feinstein kind of the worst person in this entire affair?

In any event, if this torpedoes Kavanaugh, this will set a new standard for Supreme Court appointees from here on in. Expect every confirmation of judges on either right or left to devolve into a shit-show of specious allegations and revenge seeking by old spurned lovers and all the rest. And also, if Democrats Torpedo Kavanaugh, you better hope to hell they take the Senate in the midterms, or you’re likely to get a nominee you REALLY don’t like - and won’t be able to do a single thing to stop.

I’d suggest putting your more thoughtful post in a thread about the actual Kavinaugh/Ford situation, not this one.

This thread is about Starving Artist saying, in 2018, that attempted rape is no big deal. That holding a woman down on a bed and taking off her clothes and trying to penetrate her while she’s drunk and resisting is no big deal.

This is not about Starving Artist in the past not realizing that it was rape because of the times and learning different today. I would not loathe this man if that were the case.

And, well, him trying to wiggle out of it–which is why people keep pressing.

Again, this is Starving Artist, who, in 2018, believe that someone being pinned down and forcing sex on her is not a big deal. It’s not about him thinking it didn’t happen.

I actually worry if he’s ever taken this idea to its logical conclusion. He sure seems to hate women, and think they should only be in their place.

Well at least now I understand better why you have expressed so little concern about how the Republicans handle allegations of sexual assault. If you think so low of Ford, then very few accusers could ever meet whatever your standards are.

I’ll try and remember this next time you complain when I criticize how the Republicans handle these sorts of allegations.

Movies are not necessarily an adequate guide to how sexual behavior was actually perceived by everybody. As I noted elsewhere in the discussion of this topic, I was a high school and college student in the early 1980s, and terms like “consent” (in the now-standard sexual-conduct sense) and “date rape” had already entered everyday language, although you won’t find them in the movies you speak of.

It’s also worth noting that many iconic movies of the period celebrating this kind of abusive behavior, such as Animal House (1978), Revenge of the Nerds (1984), Risky Business (1983), and so on, were all written and directed by men (pretty much all white and middle-aged, AFAICT). Just because they may have thought that sexually harassing or even downright assaulting girls was all harmless good fun doesn’t mean that women at the time who actually experienced such things didn’t find them traumatic.

Hey, Starving Artist, I have a proposition for you. I’ll leave it up to you as to whether I should post my idea here, or via private message.

I hope you are curious enough to at least entertain the idea.

But those movies made zillions of dollars, and I do not recall any hand-wringing over the messages in them. Maybe the ‘Porky’s’ movies, but not Animal House, Stripes, Revenge of the Nerds, ‘Weird Science’ where some nerdy boys made a woman who would have sex with them, or about a hundred other movies based on teenage ‘hijinks’.

And it wasn’t just men harassing women in those movies. There were a number of movies that featured women seducing underaged boys. Risky Business was just the first that came to mind. And it wasn’t just about sex. Cheech and Chong made a career out of showing how funny it was to do drugs. It was overall a much more free-wheeling time. And the ‘sexual revolution’ and feminists back then were very different. Commercials celebrated women who ‘dared to wear short-shorts’. A Gremlin commercial had a woman smiling when a guy pulled up and said, “Hey toots - where’s the other half of your car?” A very young Brooke Shields informed us that she doesn’t wear panties under her Calvins. Panty commercials had women wearing tight pants walking by ogling men, and the women turning to the camera and saying that her panties made it look like she was wearing nothing at all. Commercials for pantyhose showed women walking by construction workers who hooted and whistled at them, and the message (to women) was that if you wore their pantyhose and a short skirt, maybe men will do the same for them.

I could go on. Let’s not forget that the ‘sexual revolution’ and the empowerment of sex for women was a feminist message then.

I don’t think anybody’s denying that the early 1980s were some pretty prime rape culture years in popular culture. I’m just pointing out that that doesn’t mean that the victims of sexual harassment and assault in real life found their experiences non-traumatic, or that people weren’t talking about how negative such real-life experiences could be.

If you’re considering a male high school senior calling an adult female prostitute for sex to be an example of “women seducing underaged boys”, I guess.

I’m sure. Again, though, all your examples are from commercial media, specifically advertising media. That has always been a prime locus of comfortable massages to the status quo, seasoned with just enough seemingly “daring” novelty to attract attention. The nurturing of rape culture and the objectification of women in popular media and advertising was not particularly novel or feminist at the time, any more than it is now.

Yes, but being commercially presented as what feminists of the time called a “sex object” wasn’t.

Not sure how to say this, so I’ll just say it.

I strongly suspect Sam Stone is using a technique to indirectly defend Starving Artist. He wrote a long post about stuff that has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread as an attempt to redirect the conversation. He could have posted what he did in any of the threads about Kavinaugh, but he did it here, in the thread specifically titled to to Pit Starving Artist.

Nothing he said has anything to do with Starving Artist saying it was no big deal today in 2018. none of it changes anything. But it does present a juicy debate to try and bait people into a hijack.

Please take this discussion to another thread.

Fair enough, you’re the OP.

Since Sam’s post indeed corroborates much of what I’ve been saying about the culture of previous eras and how women perceived sexual goings-on then, I’d say his post is highly germane. And as you said, it was quite thoughtful (and by your implication, persuasive). It comes as no surprise that you seek to discourage discussion of it.

no, it doesn’t, you idiot.

There are around 250 other posts you need to read.

Okay, your turn, asspipe.

I will mail you a $100 check if you can point to where I said attempted rape is no big deal.

I note you haven’t come calling for your $100.

Is there some reason for this?