It’s a pretty safe bet that if I wrote it, I don’t think it’s incredibly lame, and you bitching at me to admit is isn’t going to change that. Especially if your tactics for doing so are to attack me personally, tell me I’m an idiot and a fool, call me names, and tell me what I really meant. You niether impress or shame me with such tactics.
However much you all choose to be offended, it’s all about what you choose to own. Strangely enough, I have not attacked a single one of you personally. Not one. You are the ones who get bent out of shape when I make what I freely admit are generalizations. You decide I MUST be talking about YOU personally, and go ballistic. Even if I were talking about you personally, your reaction is silly. (See my previous post)
Unlike most people, I don’t think generalizations are the devil’s brew. I think if you’re honest, you’ll admit that a whole lot of things can generally be said about alot of groups of people. But if you look up the word generalization, I think you will learn that it does not mean that it refers all the time to every person in the given group. By any means. But ya know what? People are not that different as one bigass group of animals…start breaking them down into categories based on various characterisitcs, and they get even less different, and generalizations become safer to make.
I am a middle-aged, overweight, white, highly educated, agnostic, liberal female raised in Hollywood, California by a woman who could be described similarly. There are LOTS of generalizations you could make about groups of middle-aged people, women, fat women, agnostics, highly educated people, Hollywood people, liberals… and they’d probably be true of me. Lots of them wouldn’t. I wouldn’t flip out about it.
My liking you has to do with the fact that somebody has finally managed to make me look like a good debator, as well as admiration over your ability to ignore reason and your own contradictions.
But, you’ve still shown yourself to be an uncaring liar.
I am going to guess that until you deal with that, nobody is going to take you seriously, and you’re going to be ridiculed, and it won’t be much fun. Either you’ll change, or you’ll leave.
Scylla - liar, perhaps. But I think deluded is more like it.
She deludes herself into thinking that her insulting generalizations about half of the country (by geography, and by political leaning) are not meant to be taken as offensive. And if (God Forbid) someone does take offense, that’s their problem. Amazing.
Stoid, I don’t really think I’ve “attacked” you. But I do question many of your ignorant statements. Hell, if someone says something racist, sexist, weightist, homophobic, or anything like that, people are going to get offended. What makes you think your ignorant and insulting remarks about people from “unsophisticated” rural areas or Conservatives will be no less offensive? Because you “didn’t mean it like that”? Well, I’m sure many of the racists and homophobes will claim “they didn’t mean it like that” either. But that doesn’t let them off the hook.
Yosemitebabe, you are not getting it. I said above that I fully expect that some people are going to be offended by some of my opinions. It’s been happening for years. But the part you don’t really don’t get is that I don’t care! Not because I’m mean, but because if I was going to worry about offending people, I wouldn’t be posting on boards labeled “Great Debates”. And the reason I can feel comfortable with that decision is because I think that anyone else who chooses to post on a board labeled "Great Debates"has to expect that people are going to be expressing opinions that they are going to find offensive. I figure that the reason they are there is to debatethose opinons. Not browbeat the posters into apologizing for them, which is what I feel you guys are trying to do. It still looks a whole lot to me like you are just trying to beat me into submission. You didn’t like what I said, you didn’t like what I continued to say, and you are outraged that I haven’t crumbled and begged your forgiveness for offending you.
The thing that gets ME, is that you guys are SOOOOOO fucking offended by my GENERALIZATIONS about MILLIONS of people that you feel JUSTIFIED in being personally vicious towards me as an individual and you think that I have convenient thinking? The amount of vitriol being spewed in my personal direction is wildly out of proportion to anything I’ve said thus far anywhere, and especially out of proportion to what I’ve said that prompted this thread. I made a vague remark that you guys took to be me saying “Southerners are ignorant rubes”. Even if I DID say that, do you really think it was so unforgivably horrid as to deserve the flaying I’m getting???
I mean seriously, the way this looks to me is that at worst,what I’ve said thus far could be summed up and overstated to be: “Republicans are selfish thinkers, therefore I don’t trust their arguments, and Southerners are non too bright” And that’s about as cruel and offensive as I’ve been to ANYONE. My other crime is too many threads. (Which I did because I could tell some people weren’t going back to threads that had gone in a different direction. So I wanted the new info to be noticed. Mea culpa…though why anyone cares is beyond me.) Does that justify calling me a cunt? Does that justify hating me? Does that justify calling me a liar? Does that justify calling me stupid, lame, etc? Call me crazy…
Something more is going on here, and I think it’s up to you guys to figure out what it is.
By the way, you have not been especially harsh. A little, but not too. Still, the very existence of this thread strikes me as a little harsh…at least in reaction to what I’ve actually said.
WHAT A SHOCK!!! She tells me that “I don’t get it”! Once again, Stoidela, you are so “misunderstood”.
If you didn’t “care” what we thought, you wouldn’t be responding to this thread. We could all just thrash you, and you could ignore us. If you really didn’t care what we thought…
You do care. We all care. If someone said something racist, used the “N” word, called someone a “faggot” on a thread, would you not get offended? Would you not take them to task for it?
What you write isn’t quite at that horrible level, but it is offensive and ignorant nontheless. When you write someone on a public message board, people are going to react to it.
Boo hoo hoo. We are trying to “beat you into submission”. :rolleyes: No, we just want a straight answer out of you. We’d take a decent “debate” with you on some of these lame things you say. But that’s not what you do. What you do is hedge and backpedal, and tell us we “don’t get it”.
If you were making generalizations about millions of black people, or millions of gay people, would we not feel justified in being really offended by you? Why cannot you use some restraint before you make these generalizations?
“Black people are selfish thinkers, therefore I don’t trust their arguments. And gay people are none too bright.”
No, nothing too offensive there either.
My OP specifically stated that I only started this thread (emphasizing that I was not hysterical and was not using any profanity) to get your attention. Otherwise, I knew you’d just ignore ignore ignore the questions I had for you. (Whilst busily starting new threads, of course! )
I haven’t read all this thread, for which I apologize. I’m responding because I’ve always thought you were one of the coolest of the Dopers (can I have free password?). You’ve always had my respect, both for your post and for your sites. If this has already been addressed, I apologize.
I live in a Southern, rural state that went (to my eternal disgust) strongly for Dubya. I’m not proud of how the majority of my fellow Kentuckians voted.
YET
Millions voted for Gore (and Nader). In fact, Gatewood Galbraith, a notorious pro-hemp candidate, made an extremely strong showing in the Lexington congressional race.
Yes, substantial numbers of my neighbors voted for Bush, as did most of the rural populace. But around 40% of us didn’t. That’s millions of people. It’s unfair to characterize us as roundheads.
Prejudice is wrong. People (even us ignernt rural dwellers) are individuals. I respect you too much to believe you’re truly a geographist. Yes, more of us voted the wrong way, but there are still plenty of right thinkin’ folks out here in the sticks.
Okay Ybabe, you tell me. What are the rules? When I acknowledge that YOUR view of my meaning is correct, I’m no longer misunderstood? Gimme a break…MY truth is the one YOU decide? Don’t think so.
If I keep telling you: “This is a single blue button” and you repeat back to me: “So, that’s a basket of green hooks and eyes, right? RIGHT?” and I keep saying “NO, it’s a blue button. One blue button. It’s a small, plastic, light blue button with four holes in the middle.” And you say, “So, it’s a big brown wooden button, right, RIGHT? C’mon ADMIT IT’S A BROWN WOODEN BUTTON! STOP HEDGING!” It gets really tiresome, ya know? How many times do I have to tell you before you accept it?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yosemitebabe *
**
Define “care”. My ego cares. My (much improved, you will find hard to believe) need to be right cares. And yeah, it’s nice to have people speak nicely to me rather than harshly. Do I lose sleep? Do I question who I am, whether I’m ok or not? No. I never have and will not start to adjust myself to try and get everybody to like me. I will never succeed and it will take alot of the fun outta things. I have outrageous opinions, and I know it. It’s fun to share them with folks and debate them.
And if people started seriously throwing around the world “nigger”, what kind of liberal would I be if I didn’t jump down their throats? Especially seeing as my mom was prez of the local chapter of the NAACP… we marched with King when I was a kid… she’d kill me if I let that one go by. But that isn’t vaguely similar to what I said
A better analogy, if I may suggest one, would be if someone said: “All fat people are lazy”. That would get my dander up, and I would proceed to disabuse them of that notion. But I wouldn’t have a cow over it and start abusing them personally.
**
Ybabe, you are so fond of your rhetoric, yer starting to remind me of the Bush camp “recount after recount after recount…” hedge and backpedal, hedge and backpedal"- WHAT the fuck are you talking about? I have not hedged or backpedaled about a thing. I can see why you ** might** feel that way about the conservative thread, although I still say exactly what I said at first: I think conservative philosophy is selfish, and therefore I don’t trust conservatives when they talk about political matters. When I said that, I was thinking about the conservatives on TV and in public life, but if you think and act like they do, I think it about you, too. And I think rural folk are generally unsophisticated and that one of the ways that is expressed is in heir tendency to make things very personal. They do apply their (mostly religiously-backed) value system regarding personal matters to politics. And I think that is a bad way to make those kinds of decisions. And I base that opinion on what they say about themselves. Tell me where and how I’ve “hedged and backpedaled”? Please cut and paste, don’t just keep repeating it to try and make it so. That’s a Republican tactic!
I believe I do. My generalizations have been extremely mild, and they have not been about oppressed groups of people. I have also explained that I do not believe the PC view that all generalization is bad or even unfair. After all, it was me that started the thread recently about blacks, making the generalization that they are disproportionately good at sports. And I would say it is generally true that gay people are funny and creative. You gonna jump me for that? Or is that positive generalization is ok, negative is not? And if that is so, can you give me a good explanation why that is?
[quote]
I mean seriously, the way this looks to me is that at worst,what I’ve said thus far could be summed up and overstated to be: “Republicans are selfish thinkers, therefore I don’t trust their arguments, and Southerners are non too bright” And that’s about as cruel and offensive as I’ve been to ANYONE.
[/quote
“Black people are selfish thinkers, therefore I don’t trust their arguments. And gay people are none too bright.” .
No, nothing too offensive there either. [/quote]
Again, that is NOT what I said, it is what you HEARD. Not the word above “overstated”. And again, I was not talking about oppressed groups, and yes, I make the distinction. ESPECIALLY when talking about Republicans. Given that so many of them make up the ruling class, I think they are more than fair game, frankly.
I only ignore because I get tired of having to repeat myself when people ddon’t like that I said it the first time. That is also why I have been away for months and don’t, as a rule, debate the way I used to. It just became repetitive. I NEVER flee an argument because I am afraid to stand up for my position. NEVER.
And hey, about those threads…I wasn’t the only one! You’re just mad at me so you are finding things to pick on me about! And everyone has their taste…I prefer a shorter, more specific thread to a huge one that is all over the map, so :P.
Well, I definitely look upon individuals as individual, and I don’t think you’re all roundheads. In fact, my hunny was just saying the other day how difficult he found it not to jump to the conclusion upon hearing a Southern accent , that the speaker was a little less than brilliant. I immediately spoke up to agree that that was a VERY wrong impression to have, and never to make that mistake. Some very sharp minds hiding under a slow souther drawl…
I am also a geographist, tho. But not only about the south…shit, I grew up in Hollywood and I feel nothing but shame and distress that I live in…gag…the VALLEY. EEEEWWWWWW…working hard to get the HELL outta here!
I will say this about the south itself: it’s fucking gorgeous. I wish I could stand the heat and the politics, I’d live there.
And back to you sweet Southern gentlemen…well, you can come sit by me anytime. Use that darling drawl and this hard exterior of mine will just melt like a plate of butter on a warm afternoon
Well, they are being a little bit tough with me, hunny, but I’m handling it ok.
Really, thanks. I knew someone out there liked me. And I’m sure a gentlement like you wouldn’t toy with my emotions just so you can look at the naked girls.
When you actually write something, don’t expect people to know you “really didn’t mean that”. Look at the whole of this thread. Look at the majority of the comments here. This is not just me saying that some of your comments are offensive, and some of your “explanations” are hedging and less than candid. If it were just me that thought this way, this would be a short thread indeed.
You are trippin, man! But, no, your analogy is flawed. The button analogy is obvious and clear, but many of your statements are not.
When you are actually consistent and make sense, and don’t contradict yourself.
Well, what makes you think anyone else here feels any differently about their political affiliation, or their home state when it is insulted?
Ah…another chapter in your Life History… Oh yeah, like we asked…
Maybe it wasn’t as socially controversial, but who says it does not hurt or offend the parties you directed your comments at? Are they not entitled to take offense too? Or are they not allowed to have “feelings” unless they are on your “list” of issues that matter?
Oh, you just said it, so it must be true! :rolleyes:
Your ignoring of entire points we make, the repeated “I didn’t mean it that way”, and “I never meant that” are hedging and backpedaling, especially when we are cutting and pasting things you have actually written.
Oh my gosh. Just keep on shoveling it on. Just keep on digging yourself in deeper. No one is forcing you.
That is the biggest pile of condescending shit yet. I’ll let someone else deal with it. I’m getting tired.
BWHAHAHA!
Here’s a hedge and backpedal from the “Why I don’t trust R/C” thread:.
And then when you were called on this, for your obvious (it looked to all of us) opinion that Republicans are selfish, you react with this:
Gosh, it all looks so familiar, doesn’t it, everyone? Just what she is doing here. And just as condescending too.
If you didn’t feel that the Republican on the street was selfish, why did you say this in the OP?
Oh yeah. You are so generous and wonderful. YOU, personally, made this choice, but Republicans make choices on what is good for them personally. And you don’t. It’s obviously personal, since you bring up yourself and your personal income as an example in the OP. But you hedged and backslid when called on it.
I’m sure others can find more examples, but there’s only so much energy I have for this.
So only “oppressed” groups of people should feel entitled to have feelings and take offense? Where is this list of “opressed” people? I’ll bet I’m on the list somewhere!
Once again, where is the official list of “oppressed people”? So does this mean that if you are not on the offical list, your feelings and interests don’t matter? That you are not entitled to take offense or react to insulting remarks?
I suppose that’s because you still can’t get people to accept that the lame, insulting thing you repeated several times before wasn’t what you really meant, after all.
Oh boo hoo. I’m “finding things to pick on you about”? Like I have to find things? Sheesh. You are everywhere, and your sweeping generalizations are everywhere. I don’t have to try to “find” anything to “pick on” you about. This thread was really more of a result of me (and obviously others) having our patience tried just too far.
Whatever you say, Ybabe. You apparantly know me better than anyone, and it is VERY apparant that nothing I say will be ok with you, no matter what it is.
I still can’t figure out, even if I was interested at this point, and I’m not, what I could PRETEND to say that would satisfy you. You are evidently going to pick apart, reverse, attack and despise anything and everything I say. How ever unclear I might have been to begin with, I cannot imagine how much clearer I could be now than I have been for the last dozen posts. I have stated and restated my positions, I have stated and restated how I feel about people being offended…and you just keep raving at me. About what, at this point, I have no idea. So I guess I’ll just have to accept that I’m deeply obscure and a hopelessly ineffective communicator. Or maybe you want something that you are just not gonna get. Forgive me if neither possibility keeps me awake.
So, party on. As I said earlier, just write whatever you want, put my name on it, and bitch at that.
All I know about you is from your prolific posts on this board! And, I hasten to add, this is not just about what I think about some of your attitudes. Hell, look at this thread! Look at the responses! Look at the what many different people are saying! This is not just what I think. Like I said before, if it was, this would be a short thread indeed.
“Raving”? No, just asking you to clarify. And I guess you have. You don’t care who you insult, unless they are on the “oppressed” list you have in your head somewhere.
Apparently, some of the time. If “inneffective”, you mean that you are constantly having to repeat “That’s not what I meant” when people (many people, not just me) call you on some of your statements, then yeah. That is a pretty good indicator that your communication skills need some honing. Hell, we all screw up when we are expressing our thoughts and ideas. I certainly do. But most of us do not do it with such regularity, and with such abandon.
Yeah, I want you to get a clue. I want you to maybe tone down the generalizations a bit. But, no, I’m not losing sleep waiting for it to happen.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I don’t have to write “whatever I want”, all I have to do is cut and paste your own statements!! They are usually damning enough in their own right.
But no, I don’t expect you to understand that. Ever. And just so you know, I don’t hate you, or feel deep anger or hostility towards you. You’ve been on this board for a long time, and I am sure that you have contributed much of value to this board. And I am sure you still will for a long time.
But, I just lost my patience lately. And looking at the posts on this thread, I obviously wasn’t the only one.
See, this is the whole problem here. It’s not about how many times you say it, or how you say it, it’s about whether or not it’s true. Your crap about conservatism being about personal gain is simply crap, regardless of how long you hold out. Eventually, the rest of us will be convinced that we have explained it as rationally as possible from every concievable angle, and discovered every possible flaw in your argument, and will stop arguing. That still won’t make you right, just stubborn.
Just as you know conservatives better than anyone, and it is apparent that nothing they do is not self-motivated, no matter what they themselves might say.
This may be the most honest thing I have ever heard a liberal say. I never thought I would actually see one admit it. The only difference between stoidela and a Klan member is that they look down on different groups. The fact that they choose these groups arbitrarily means nothing to her.
Stoidela, thank you for admiting that you do not stand for equality. With this window into your heart, I understand as much about you as I need to. Your thinking is probably similiar to those people who were brain-washed by the propaganda of Hitler, Mao and Stalin. Or maybe you would have fit right in with the French Revolution. Do you even see how you are driven by propaganda? Do you see that your entire world view is an us against them, no holds barred, anything goes war? The funny thing is, I am sure that you label yourself as a uniter.
I’m working on a theory that Stoidela may be Al Gore.
Hey Freedom2: way to make generalizations in a thread which overwhelmingly opines that generalizations are wrong! “This may be the most honest thing I have ever heard a liberal say. I never thought I would actually see one admit it.” Uh, WTF? Because Stoidela makes sweeping generalizations about Republicans, that makes it okay for you to make sweeping generalizations about liberals? I’m sorry–maybe I’m not a liberal after all because I disagree with Stoid, and ya know, all liberals think alike. :rolleyes:
Some of us liberals don’t think all Republicans are hard-hearted bastards who think only of themselves and how much money they can make. I know numerous Republicans who are warm-hearted, funny, caring, delightful people–they just have completely different ideas about how to help other people than I do. They think that private contributions and private charities are all that’s necessary to help the poor in this country. I think they’re dead wrong. But I don’t believe that makes them evil jerks. That would be stereotyping–something I try to avoid. Maybe you should too.
What generalization did I make about liberals? I was very specifically talking about stoidela.
Contrast this to my previous post:
This is the only time a liberal has ever told the truth. I never thought they would be able to. The only difference between liberals and the Klan is that they look down on different groups. The fact that they choose these groups arbitrarily means nothing to them.
I am glad that the liberals have finally admited that they do not stand for equality. With this window into their hearts, I understand as much about them as I need to. Their thinking is probably similiar to those people who were brain-washed by the propaganda of Hitler, Mao and Stalin. Or maybe they would have fit right in with the French Revolution. Do you think they even see how they are driven by propaganda? Do they see that their entire world view is an us against them, no holds barred, anything goes war? The funny thing is, they label themselves as uniters.
There. Now label that Why I distrust democrats/liberals and post it as it’s own thread. Then when people get a little upset, come back and say that you are disapointed in them for mis-interpreting your OP. OBVIOUSLY you were only talking about party hacks and TV pundits. Sprinkle in a few comments about how you have a socialst friend, your birth in Sweden, your childhood in Russia and the analogy would be complete.
Then you could compare my post to Stoidela’s. Until then, I maintain that my posts have been entirely pit-worthy, and focused specifically on stoidela. Any collateral insults to liberals at large was wholly unintended. I have not, and am not, trying to paint stoidela as the definitive liberal.
Stoidela…I haven’t read this entire thread for complete comprehension but I will tell you this…
When I was watching the polls on election night I had the same knee-jerk reaction to them that you did. Because basically I “feel” the same way that you do about Republican policies. I have always felt that their policies were about greed. Now we can all agree that both of these men, and most presidental candidates, are from a segment of society that does not reflect the overall population. Most of them are Harvard and Yale graduates and such, many with law degrees. Let’s face it what does the son of a rich lawyer really know about the life of a factory worker. Hell! what does he even care?! But in an attempt to be logical I also know that people who agree with these policies are not always looking out for their own pocketbooks. And even if they are swayed by sweeping promises of tax cuts and some such they have every right. It’s pretty obvious to me that the Democratic party does not necessarily stand for the “poor man” anymore. The Repubs have somehow convinced people that if the government stays away from their money they’d have more. And these people aren’t about greed they are simply about providing a better life for their families.
It did not suprise me either to see the South vote for Bush. My home state Virginia has been Republican since I can remember. That’s why I went to the polls this year and voted Democrat. I was also very pleased when I saw the results. It made it all worthwhile for me to see the stats, 46% of the state is Democrat. I’ll never stay home again just because I think I’m outnumbered.
I have to admit to so often feeling the same way you do about Republican policies and their defenders. I find so much of it way to generalized and often mean spirited. But then I have to tell myself that in many ways they have a point. Welfare reform is a good example. It used to burn me up to think of rich old white men talking about some poor woman with three kids living on 19,000 a year like it was high on the hog or something. But I have to agree that if the system is not designed to give this woman any skills to better her situation, then it defeats itself. I never liked the sweeping generalization that there were millions of people on welfare simply because they were lazy and felt “entitled”. I hate that word “entitlement”. It does burn me to hear my Republican brother-in-law make these kinds of statements. He doesn’t seem to understand that most people on welfare are children and they have no interest in politics or their lazy parents or anything else. They just need food, clothes and a place to live. And as a Christian he above all should understand that Jesus tells him to take care of the poor, the sick, and the old. How so many Christians can be so uncharitable I don’t understand. But then they don’t see it my way at all. You know, “A man does not work, a man does not eat.”
Anyway, I am not defending your position, although I sometimes “feel” the same way you do. My emotions tell me that it is better for us as a society to all pitch in and help our poor, sick, old and disenfranchised. And I think that historically Democratic policies have fallen more in line with that philosophy. The truth is that neither party is far from the center in their leanings. And I think that’s how it should be. I really am very often guilty of thinking that I am taking the moral high road. And on many issues that is exactly what dictates my view, morality. My belief that as a society we should pull together to help each other and abolish social and economic injustice. I’m just not sure if ANY party stands for that anymore.
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