Stoning in Iraq

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/05/30/homicide/index.html

AFAICR there were other jails that were worse in that regard because they were kept out of sight, and the jails that are not under US “control” are worse.
[/QUOTE]

My mistake; I thought the Abu Ghraib reference was just to the whole Lyndie England thing.

[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
Oh, I’m sorry, did I sound like I was FUCKING EXCUSING IT? Seriously?

I’m not fucking touching a word else of your post, ExTank, though I’d like to, because there are valid parts of it. But first you fucking take that back. We’re not playing that way. You know fucking well I’m not EXCUSING anything, neither are you, nobody, nobody, NOBODY is going to show up here to FUCKING EXCUSE THIS. Your word choice was at best extremely poor, sir, so retract it and we’ll move on.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, you weren’t defending it. You were simply pointing out to the OP the error of feelings of cultural superiority.

[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds]

Nope, Americans would never do anything like that.

CMC fnord!
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and we put a stop to that in the decade in which I was born; at least put a stop to turning an our eyes away from it. We do prosecute and in some cases execute those caught doing so.

We do not have a society or culture that tolerates that sort of thing, even if certain fucked-up racist groups would like to run free doing it on a daily basis to every non-white they lay their hands on. We have words for people like that: fucked-up assholes. We generally think, in the abstract at least, that they are deserving of the same fate they would bestow upon their victims.

[QUOTE=Squink]
I see GIGObuster’s already supplied a little of that for you.
Now, How about Haditha? The lawyer charged over attempting to cover that up certainly appears to have a fucked up idea of Justice, yet he is one of ‘our’ people.
[/QUOTE]

We weren’t talking about Haditha. But since you bring it up, allow me to retort.

Isolated instances of crimes or brutality amongst us “Western Demon Infidels” is not indicative of an endemic embrace of these actions. When such activities are exposed, people go to jail. Or worse.

“Honor Killings” are an accepted, deep-rooted cultural practice. Entire families, and civil authorities, turn a blind-eye towards it, the same way southern whites in the U.S. used to turn a blind eye towards lynchings of blacks. The better parts of them might’ve given a half-hearted “How horrible,” before turning to the sports page of their morning newspaper.

[QUOTE=Mr. Svinlesha]
Ex-Tank:Well, that certainly sounds like a racist, or bigoted, statement, and since I know you aren’t a racist or a bigot, I’m sure it must have come out wrong.

In all honesty, there aren’t many cultures as violent, vicious, primitive, and vengeful as the our own American one. What was it Coulter wrote after 9/11? We should kill all of their men and convert all their women to Christianity? Killing all their men is more than a 12 to 1 vengeance ration, my friend. Limbaugh said that Abu Ghraib was no worse than your run-of-the-mill fraternity hazing. crowmanyclouds posted an interesting bit of Americana. Even on these boards, Scylla has argued that we’ve been too soft in Iraq, and need to implement a policy of genocide if we really want to win.

Americans certainly don’t have a moral platform from which they can pass judgment on other cultures or races.
[/QUOTE]

Look, Svin, I claim no expert knowledge of ME cultures and practices; Tamerlane has that covered well enough. And even he acknowledged:

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]

Sadly Kurdistan, like a lot of rugged backwaters from northern Yemen to the Hindu Kush to 19th century West Virginia, is very much Hatfield-McCoy territory as Ex-Tank alludes. It’s one of several reasons I’ve always been less than sanguine about the prospect of a stable Kurdish entity, despite the best hopes of many. It may be by far the most stable area in Iraq, but that’s grading on a very generous curve.

  • Tamerlane
    [/QUOTE]

If it makes you happy, yes, I decry the Hatfield-McCoy mentality of rural 19th century America. We do not as a culture embrace, acknowledge, or tolerate that sort of thing any more. Does it still happen? I’m sure someone could dig up a cite or two. Doesn’t make it right, or that American/Western society tolerates it.

Now if someone could show me (and I’m willing to be shown!) how this particular segment ME society came together to renounce “Honor Killings,” passed laws against it, and started imprisoning and/or executing those who engage in the practice, then I’ll acknowledge that our cultures are different, but morally equivalent.

Look, this is not a condemnation of Islam; I think Honor Killings are a cultural relic from before Mohammed’s time, that modern Islam, in certain geographical areas and ethnic groupings, has retained. But I do not judge all Islam based upon this. The same way all Christians shouldn’t be judged by the actions of Fred Phelps.

That’s all I have time for now. I’ll check back in later.

62

[QUOTE=fessie]
I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you men. MEN!

Women don’t do this shit. Not unless they join male institutions, like that little twat over at Abu Ghraib. What is it about MEN that makes you do this crap?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah. A real buncha sweethearts.

63

[QUOTE=Fat Chance]
I just don’t know how a human can stand by and be ok with such an event.
[/QUOTE]

Easier than one would think.

64

Ex-Tank:

According to the CNN article, four people are already under arrest for the attack, and four others are being sought by police. And, as Tamerlaine noted, “So far the Yazidi religious and political figures that have been quoted seem to have unequivocally condemned the killing. Which is something, I guess.”

Further, it’s very difficult to judge from your statement just who, precisely, you are referring to. Who are “these people”? It seems you mean to include more than just the perpetrators. Do you mean just the Yazidi? Or all Kurds? Or Muslims? Etc. “These people” can be a pretty inclusive phrase, ya know.

65

[QUOTE=ExTank]

Isolated instances of crimes or brutality amongst us “Western Demon Infidels” is not indicative of an endemic embrace of these actions. When such activities are exposed, people go to jail. Or worse.

[/QUOTE]

I know this a bit of a hijack, but it seems to me that there is a lot going on in Iraq that should be our responsibility; telling ourselves that it is not, may be comforting, but it avoids facing what is going on.

Guys like Negroponte and Elliot Abrahams looked the other way when death squads began to rampage in Central America, When Bush appointed that same crowd and similar party hacks to control the violence in Iraq, I think it is silly to see as benign that one of the ways we dealt with Abu Grahib was by allowing it to be outsourced.

(Warning, ugly reality in that BBC video)

One can of course say we “nice” people are not responsible for that, but when I see leaders appointing people that at best played like ostriches or at worse organized the same solution for El Salvador as the one for Iraq that I don’t foresee much of an effort from the current administration to stop the sectarian violence by going after the ones using those abusive and deadly jails.

Easy to say that they are not under direct US control, nevermind that we did train many of the Iraqis involved in “pacifying” the situation now or that we look the other way as a solution.

66

Our humane culture only means that resistance to the brutality virus is higher than it might be amongst others. Put men in situations of stress and fear long enough, and it breaks down. This is not an indictment of them so much as them who put them there.

And I should very much like to believe that Haditha was an isolated, even unique, incident. I don’t believe that.

67

Ok, so this is where I am now with this:

It’s morally and intellectually irresponsible and it’s overly simplistic to judge an entire culture based on the actions of a few members. Fine.

But I still feel I can condemn another culture as inferior to the extent (certainly nonzero and perhaps substantial) that the values of the individuals in question are a reflection of the culture in which they live and participate, values that I personally feel are inferior to mine. Namely, their belief that the caving in of girls’ skulls in public, in front of police, is appropriate.

68

from** Fessie**

I didn’t see any women out there defending that girl in the video. Last I knew an AK-47 did not have the ability to know the sex of the person pulling the trigger. A woman could have intervened. I find it hard to believe that this girl was the ONLY female in the village, so where were the women? Take your feminist crap and stuff it. The women were no better no worse than the others that let it happen. The worst were the police who had a duty to stop it and didn’t.

69

[QUOTE=Mr. Svinlesha]
Ex-Tank:According to the CNN article, four people are already under arrest for the attack, and four others are being sought by police. And, as Tamerlaine noted, “So far the Yazidi religious and political figures that have been quoted seem to have unequivocally condemned the killing. Which is something, I guess.”

Further, it’s very difficult to judge from your statement just who, precisely, you are referring to. Who are “these people”? It seems you mean to include more than just the perpetrators. Do you mean just the Yazidi? Or all Kurds? Or Muslims? Etc. “These people” can be a pretty inclusive phrase, ya know.
[/QUOTE]

Are you trying to pick a fight by insinuating something? By “These people,” I would’ve thought it quite evident by the context of my previous post that I was referring to the people that stoned a teenaged girl to death, and the culture that says it’s okay to do so. Their skin color has nothing to do with it; their religion only inasmuch as it has been twisted to make Honor Killings acceptable, tolerable even.

70

[QUOTE=seenidog]
I didn’t see any women out there defending that girl in the video. Last I knew an AK-47 did not have the ability to know the sex of the person pulling the trigger. A woman could have intervened. I find it hard to believe that this girl was the ONLY female in the village, so where were the women? Take your feminist crap and stuff it. The women were no better no worse than the others that let it happen. The worst were the police who had a duty to stop it and didn’t.
[/QUOTE]

Oh come on - the point of that kind of violence is to keep women in line. They damn well know how they rate in that society.

I’ll agree it’s unfair of me to cast a wide net of blame in present company. By and large, men on the Dope are far more enlightened than most of their peers. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any of them here pull the “Guy” card, but it sure happens IRL. Surely the men here would agree (perhaps I should open a new thread).

There are plenty of men in America today who aren’t far removed from that kind of behavior - look at domestic violence, rape, disparities in pay. Not as lethal as bashing in someone’s skull, no, but it is about establishing dominance, and that does seem endemic to men.

Yes, women can be evil too. It’s true.

71

[QUOTE=zoo]
You do realize our “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” was burning witches less than 400 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

We outgrew it. Why haven’t they?

72

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
We outgrew it. Why haven’t they?
[/QUOTE]
Robots, man. Robots mess everything up.

Who’s “we,” and what’s “it?” Burning witches? Unless I missed something, no witches have been burned recently in Iraq either. A person was killed based on rumors about her choice of a romantic partner. Dunno about the rest of Western civilization, but here in central Florida, there hasn’t been a comparable killing since March.

73

Actually, I take that back; there was a more recent such killing on Monday.

But surely we civilized Western folk have outgrown such behavior since then.

(Actually, Willie Tarpley Jr. of Brandon, FL may disqualify Western civilization from any claim of elevated status all by himself. In addition to the murder itself, he also served prison for kidnapping and torturing a nude dancer back in 1988. The article mentions the incident, but doesn’t specify the more sordid details: she was not only beaten, but her eyes and genitals were both glued shut.)

74

[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
I mean what you say is how genocide begins. If you think for one second that any type of human is more or less inherently capable of doing evil or good only because of where they come from or the family into which they were born, and then you take that thought and turn it into a screed like this, and add a few armies, the next thing you know, you’re killing all the Jews. Go ahead, flip the fuck out, I said it, I own it, I think it’s fucking true, so let’s not spend the next fucking two pages on how the word “Nazi” is the only thing the anti-offenderatti take offense to for some reason, except of course the testimony of a non-Aryan. I’m so fucking sick of this pussyfooting around the racist trollery in the Pit, and you knew what you were doing, you admitted it, so don’t you dare squeal, little piggy, because it’s on.

YOU KNOW BETTER. And you know that you do. Listen to this, you could have done what they did. Understand that? Under the right circumstances, almost any human can replicate the act of almost any other human. Those which couldn’t are considered unhealthy, aberrations; almost always unwell. Pound it into your fucking brain when you see shit as horrible as this. It has nothing to do with the “culture”. It has everything to do with human fucking beings, and until you drop this “these people” bullshit and embrace that, then you’re part of the fucking problem. And I’m not talking to the troll who started this. I’m talking to everyone else.
[/QUOTE]

Wow. Are you a moderator of this board? Because not many people are so obnoxiously offensive unless they feel like they have some sort of power over whoever it is they’re talking to.

Out of curiousity: are you saying nobody should ever be offended by brutish, animalistic behavior?

Or only when it’s perpetuated by Kurds?

75

I take back what I said about animals. Animals aren’t so pointlessly cruel.

76

Ex-Tank:

Absolutely not. I thought I was being pretty clear.

In my first response to you I wrote, “Well, that certainly sounds like a racist, or bigoted, statement, and since I know you aren’t a racist or a bigot, I’m sure it must have come out wrong.”

Obviously the men who actually did this deed are sub-human. So complaining about them seems a bit redundant: sort of the equivalent of writing, “Gee, that Charles Manson sure has some fucked-up moral values!” Well, d’uh. Same pretty much goes for anyone who would consider this act to be acceptable. But I do think it’s wrong to judge an entire culture group, about which one know virtually nothing, on the basis of a single sensationalized incident. And as has been pointed out for the third time thus far, the men responsible have been arrested, and representatives for the Yaziki, both political and religious, have condemned the act.

Here in Sweden we have a large immigrant population, and honor killings are not at all unheard of. They are also often sensationalized when they occur, and are used in certain quarters to condemn middle-eastern cultures while asserting the Aryan superiority of white nordic cultures.

Still, you have a point in that there are still some backwards little pockets here and there in the world where the honor of the family is considered to be of such importance that it must be defended, even by murder if necessary. That is to be condemned, of course, but I just don’t see the need to make comparisons.

YMMV.

77

[QUOTE=LinusK]
Wow. Are you a moderator of this board? Because not many people are so obnoxiously offensive unless they feel like they have some sort of power over whoever it is they’re talking to.
[/quote]

You’re a guest, so maybe you don’t understand how the Pit works yet. Therefore I will settle for expressing my opinion of people who attempt to insult others for doing something well in the place they’re supposed to do it like this: Hee hee hee.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s amazing how you figured it out, given that I’ve said things in this thread which contradict it, but that was just to throw you off, of course. But no flies on you! You got me but good. For example, I don’t really think the Holocaust was bad, I just threw that in there so you wouldn’t realize I’m capable of empathy only for vicious Kurdish murderers and just had to rush in here to defend them all.

78

Well, shit. I take it back.

I had no idea the practice was so widespread as it appears to be: my go-to source, an Iranian acquaintance, told me honor killing were virtually unheard of in the Muslim world. Not true, apparently. According to UN statistics, at least 5000 such murders take place each year. Dig this :

And then there’s this:

[QUOTE]
[ul]*
[li]Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that “he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty.” [11] This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament.[16][/li]
Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but without premeditation) include:
[li] Syria: Article 548 states that “He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants [sic], descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty.”[/li]
Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include:
[li] Morocco: Article 418 of the Penal Code states “Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery.”[/li] [li] Haiti: Article 269 of the Penal Code states that “in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned.”[/li] [li]In two Latin American countries, similar laws were struck down over the past two decades: according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus “in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal ‘honor killings’; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery.”[17][/li]Countries where honor killing is not legal but is frequently in practice include:
[li] Turkey: In Turkey, persons found guilty of this crime are sentenced to life in prison.[18][/li] [li]Iraqi Kurdistan: In Kurdistan, women are killed nearly every day for dishonored[sic] their families.[19] Honor killing was legal until 2002 in Iraq.[/li] [li] Pakistan: Honor killings are known as Karo Kari. The practice is supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it.[20] Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honor and he will go free. Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings.[21] Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that “he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty.” [11] This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament.[16]*[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
No matter how you slice it, that’s some seriously fucked-up shit.

Yeah, so I concede: a culture in which women are legally killed every day for allegedly tarnishing their family’s honor is inferior to my own.

It’s fucking outrageous, is what it is.

79

From Fessie

I agree with you for the most part. I just took exception to the men are pigs attitude. Not all men are pigs, and I have run into one or two mean spirited women. Women are no better no worse than men. You blaming men, while the women let it happen seemed unfair. I can understand women were afraid to intervene lest they have the same fate. That is why police were invented. I have to suspect that police there and here are two different things. Can we agree that the failure of the police to intervene was unacceptable? Back when I was a cop in the state of Wisconsin such behavior was called “Non-feasance”. Defined as a failure to do duty you are sworn to do. A felony with a ten year price tag.

80

[QUOTE=Mr. Svinlesha]
Obviously the men who actually did this deed are sub-human.
[/QUOTE]
Dehumanizing someone is exactly what they did. Let’s not follow their example. They aren’t sub-human; if they were, they couldn’t be held to account for their ethical atrocities.