Strict Catholicism - Healthy or Freaky? - long

In My Humble Opinion
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<hijack> Res - Did you ask your girl to marry you? How’d you do it and how’d it go?
</hijack>

I’m a relatively devout Catholic. (Mass on Sundays and Holy Day and usually during the week, pray the rosary regulary, etc) I’ll be honest - the ideal person for me would be someone who not only shares my beliefs, but with whom I can practice those beliefs. I remember my mother saying she never felt closer to my father than when they were at Mass together. I’d like that feeling. I love Mass. I love the ritual and what it means. And yes, I do listen to the words that come from my mouth. I think if I were not to be with a fellow Catholic, I’d still want to be with someone devout in their own faith, because I think if you don’t experience that, you can’t understand where I’m coming from.

StG

22

<hijack>
Ooops, sorry for the lack of update. Yes, I’m engaged to a wonderful (and Catholic) young lady now. We’re aiming for next May, contingent on me getting my job squared away and hopefully settling near a law school to which she could transfer for her third year.

I proposed to her in a nice Italian restaurant. Nothing too special, except that it is the first restaurant we ever ate in together. (I even got our original booth.)
</hijack>

Sorry for the interrupt, rhino. Love is wonderful.

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actually, i do believe that God talks to people… unfortunately, most of them are too preoccupied to listen. i’ll even say that i had one experience of that myself. out of the blue, as i was driving one afternoon, i suddenly got an answer to a Major Request i’d been bombarding Him with. i had an ex-racehorse who was (and still is) a genuine nutcase (which i blame on his upbringing at the track). he was dangerous to ride, as in i’d gotten pretty banged up a couple of times. i couldn’t in good conscience sell him to someone else…the guilt would have overwhelmed me if he went on to hurt or kill a new owner. so i needed some inspiration as to what i could do to make him more manageable. and behold, the little voice spoke as i tooled along the road: “Start him over from the beginning.” which i did. i won’t make any major claims that he’s now a wonderful little darling that you’d trust kids to ride… but i haven’t broken any more bones recently. knock wood

does that make what me sound like a hypocrite now, after what i said earlier about God telling his girlfriend to be a mommy and have babies? i suppose it could, to an outsider. but the distinction in my mind is, i was pestering the living cr@p out of God for an answer to what i considered a life-and-death issue (mine, possibly, or the horse’s if i couldn’t get him retrained). and the persistence apparently paid off. so maybe if rhinostylee’s girlfriend was similarly storming the gates of Heaven with questions about which path she should take in life, then my dubiosity is uncalled for. however, i didn’t really get the feeling that that was particularly the case. could just be that something got lost in the translation, i suppose. but i’d still get a bad case of the willies at the thought of God directly telling somebody “Your life mission is to be a mommy. End of story.”

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I’m going to take this at a different angle.

She lives by herself and has religious icons over her entire apartment. I’m guessing she is early - mid twenties.

And she is hearing voices from God telling her that it is her job is to be a mom and have babies and she attends mass and confession several times a week.

Ummmmmm.

Is anyone else here creeped out by this?

What in hell can a good decent person need to be going to confession a couple of times a week for?

She’s got issues. One of which is that she needs to be controlled and told what to do and how to think. That is just my armchair quarterback prognosis. Of course, I’ve never met the girl and she is probably all that is lovely and eveyrthing more, but…

View this experience in dating as Comparison Shopping. Just looking, maybe a test drive, but don’t buy anything.

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rhinostylee,

Why does she need an objective source? I imagine she has no interest in becoming not-Catholic, so certainly she should look to what religious leaders in her faith have said on whatever issue you may be debating.

While you say you’re not trying to convert her or change her opinions, it’s aparent that you do not respect her belief (that’s not meant as a slam, just an observation). I particularly feel that way when I read that you are frustrated that she finds answers that affirm her beliefs (as opposed to ones that call her beliefs hooey?).

If someone poses a tough moral/spiritual question to me that I don’t have an answer to, I’m very likely to go see what the thinkers of my faith have said on the topic, as I trust their conclusions will be based on the same belief system that I have.

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You have to accept your girlfriend’s faith unconditionally for the two of you to have a future.

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Wow, I must say that creating this thread was the best thing I could have done for my present state of mind. Thank you all so musch for your opinions - they were all taken to heart, literally. She is an amazing person, and we are in the throws of that romantic infatuation that can only come from emerging love. I’ve been completely honest with her about my move cross country, and her reaction to the news could not have been cooler. She said that she will support me no matter what I decide (she knows this is my dream) and that she is trying not to be selfish! How cool is that! Needless to say, I was taken aback and tears came to my eyes as I have never met anyone as selfless as this. I thought that she would break up with me since we both know how it will end, but we are still going strong and grow closer every day. It is her faith that keeps her from leaving me, because she believes that if it was meant to be, than things will work themselves out.

Talk about your all time sweethearts. Hopefully you get a sense of why it is so hard for me to accept the reality of the situation. I cannot fathom walking away from a woman as amazing as I’ve described, but fundamental beliefs are hard to compromise. Actually, I should consider myself extremely lucky, because I have about 4 months left with this beautiful person, and then the means to end it on a good note with legitamate reasons and a handful of great memories. I can leave the situation in a positive light and we can always remember our summer together.

The only problem is that I already know how I will react; I will regret leaving before my car is out of the state and will miss her and doubt my decision left and right. I can logically understand why it is for the best, but my emotions will tell me otherwise. They will tell me that I left the best thing that ever happened to me and that I’m a fool for leaving. Keep in mind that these events will happen 4 months from now, but I know myself well enough to know how I will react. I will be quite pathetic. So why don’t I end it now? I can’t. I won’t even consider it. She blows me away. Despite what logic tells me, I guess in all honesty I’m looking for my reason to stay and keep hope that she is the one. Even thought I know that in all reality, that is probably not the case.

So I plan on enjoying what I have while I have it, and learning from this woman all that I can. I’m really lucky to be in this situation, in all honesty. My options are wide open, which is a really good feeling. I doubt I will, but every now and again I tell myself that she is worth every sacrifice and to compromise what I believe and ride out the relationship into marriage if at all possible. But I know that my ecstacy would only last for about five years at the most before I’d think I made a big life mistake.

Thank you again for you insights - and by all means, post even more. It really means alot to me, and I get more out of your opinions than you realize, even those that oppose mine. I will keep you all posted; it’s the least I can do. I plan on enjoying what she has to offer and will offer her all that I have, and although all of us know more than likely how it will end, I’m going to enjoy the time we have to the fullest.

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rhinostylee, I think you’re making a very wise decision, albeit the hardest one you’ll probably ever have to make. It tore me apart to leave my boyfriend. But I did it as much for him as for myself.

When you love someone the way I loved him (and, it seems, you love this woman), you want them to be fulfilled in 4 critical ways – emotionally, intellectually, physically and spiritually. I could give him 3 of the 4, but that last one was never going to be. And I wanted him to have that in his life. He deserved nothing less.

Over the next few years we ran into each other a few times and each time he told me he’d still not met anyone who even came close to comparing to me (nor I him). But we both knew that no matter how strong our love, a future for us was completely out of the question. Eventually he met a woman who was a non-denominational Christian and she converted to Catholicism for him. When he told me about his decision to marry her, he said that she reminded him of me so much that he felt as if he got to marry me, afterall. (That creeps some people out when I tell them that, but I was extremely flattered.)

You’d think that might make me sad, somehow. But nothing could have made me happier! All I wanted was for him to have a happy, loving and fulfilled life and now he has that. I actually met her when they were on their first date together and ran into them together a couple of times after they got married and I liked her a lot. Last I knew, they had 2 darling sons and were a very happy family. I could never have given him that!

Though it took me longer than it did him, I finally found the man who could fulfill every aspect of my life, as well. He is an incredibly amazing man and I am so blessed to have him in my life. I’m thankful every single day for what I have.

But I’m also thankful for every moment I had with my first love. He helped me become the woman that I am today. He helped me learn what really loving someone meant. He helped me learn exactly what I was looking for in a life partner and gave me the strength and conviction not to settle for less.

You will hurt and you will miss her terribly. But you will never, ever regret either loving her, or, oddly enough, leaving her.

I wish you the best.

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Well, there was that girl named Mary…

And, besides, she was asking God if she should be a nun, right? I think, if you were considering that, you’d pray about it quite a bit. God apparently said that she should not become a nun and instead take the marriage/kids route. Is that so weird? Lots of us get the “call” to do that!

I must admit that this is the one thing that raised my eyebrows a bit. It is my understanding that, for the average Catholic, confession happens much less often than that. So, yeah, one wonders what she needs to confess so often. Not that it’s any of my business, but…

30

Sadly I have to agree with Shayna. It’s a helluva thing to have such a seemingly small thing put the kibosh on an otherwise fantastic relationship. But, obviously, it isn’t a ‘small’ thing to many people and clearly your girlfriend is one such person.

No right or wrong here but it stinks and is one of the reasons I am personally not a big fan of organized religion. I wish everyone had as open a mind as Shayna (and for that matter many other people I see here) but some things can’t always be compromised (although that doesn’t mean you can’t try…you never know).

In the end it is exactly this kind of thing that sours me to organized religion…to me religion is a distinctly personal thing and I would never inflict my outlook on you unwanted nor would I accept your opinions unsolicited. Even if solicited I would expect the ability to disagree peaceably and not have the discussion brought up otherwise (which in a sense having a bloody Jesus hanging over your bed does every day).

It does seem as if your girlfriend is too devout to truly compromise to an extent you’d be comfortable with BUT YOU NEVER KNOW. In the end what do you have to lose that you wouldn’t lose anyway? I don’t want to ruin your seemingly blissful summer ahead (so timing is a big consideration) but at soe point in ther eyou might try to lay down where you stand and see if she can accomodate herself to your satisfaction*.

[sub]NOTE: This accomodation is a TWO-WAY street and by no means all up to the woman. This is simply written to the man who posted here…I hope it goes without saying that he needs to bend as well if he expects the relationship to survive this summer.[/sub]

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Just thought I’d jump in here and note that there is no such thing as a “cafeteria catholic.” To be a Catholic means that you follow the beliefs and doctrines of the Church. The Church is not a democracy, no matter how much you might wish it to be so. It is a hierachical organization with the Pope at its head as Christ’s vicar on Earth. Practicing the fragments of Catholicism that you happen to like does not a Catholic make. Am I a Catholic? No, but I used to be one.

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As a non-Catholic who married a Catholic in the Catholic Church, I can attest to this. When you meet with the priest before the wedding, he will have the Catholic person swear that they will do their best to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic person basically has to attest to hearing their future spouse make this commitment and that they understand what this means.

My husband and I aren’t particularly interested in having children, but if we had them we were still open to showing them other possibilities and in fact discussed that with the priest. But my husband is going from a not-really-practicing Catholic to a very dissatisfied Catholic, and so this might not even be an issue if it happens. I suspect, however, that a devout Catholic like the GF in question would in fact take that pledge completely literally, and wouldn’t have issues with the church like my husband does.

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Tamex - (i just knew someone would bring up the Annunciation if i didn’t mention it myself!) yeah, but back then, EVERY woman’s calling was to be a mommy. society didn’t provide much else in the way of respectable options in the BC era. and if i recall correctly, God wasn’t so much informing Mary that she was supposed to marry and have kids (she was already engaged at the time), He wanted her to know and be cool with the fact that Firstborn Son was going to be the Special Edition.

and Scumpup, if you want to debate whether or not i meet your definition of Catholicism, why don’t you call me (and probably others) out for a debate, rather than just hijack someone else’s thread?

rhinostylee, i offer my own apologies for this sidetrack/hijack.

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rhinostylee, I don’t know if you still want to hear my answers to your questions, but…what the hell. :slight_smile:

Let me say up front that I’m a “live and let live” kind of person. Evangelization has never appealed to me. So I’ll just be talking about myself here, without trying to persuade anyone that I’m right, or anything like that.

I was raised Catholic. My father actually studied to be a priest, but his mother had sent him to the seminary when he was 10 years old without a say in the matter (this was in post-WWII Italy), and he left the seminary at 23. He has a very laid-back attitude (to put it charitably) about religion, as does my mother, so I wasn’t raised in a devout household. We went to church every Sunday, but I don’t remember them teaching about God or anything. When I was little, I prayed to God and believed in angels, and that was it. I went through a period from about age 13 - 17 in which I was very interested in Wicca. My parents still made me go to church with them, but I didn’t participate in the Mass or take communion.

Then I went away to college and became extremely homesick and depressed, and I think I turned back to Catholicism just because I was familiar with it and needed that comfort. Then, when I was 20, I had an experience that solidified my faith. Since childhood, I had had certain mental/emotional problems that I couldn’t seem to shake, and they got worse when I was in college. A Catholic friend of mine took me to a Charismatic healing Mass one night, and after that I was leagues better than I had been before, to such a dramatic extent that I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to call it a miracle. I didn’t have about 90% of the problems I used to have, and I had done nothing (didn’t go to therapy, didn’t take medicine, didn’t change the way I thought) to help myself on my own, except for going to this Mass. That really increased my spiritual fervor, and that’s led me to be the way I am today.

It would take me all day to explain how I know Catholicism to be true. Aside from that healing experience, I’m a believer in Catholicism for more…rational reasons, for lack of a better word. To make a long story short, Catholicism sees an order in the universe that I grok, if you will. (In fact, my sig sums this up nicely – it’s a line from Dante’s Paradiso that I translate as, “All things have an order to them, and it’s this form that makes the universe resemble God.”) The Church’s moral teachings all integrate with each other – nothing is contradictory if you understand the fundamental idea that all human life has infinite value and dignity. The Church is cool with the idea of evolution, the Big Bang, medical advances, etc., seeing these ideas as fitting in with God’s order of creation. The Church calendar and the sacraments are also very orderly and therefore satisfying to me.

…And I really enjoy learning about the history of the Church, and all the saints and their contributions to the understanding of God and the spirit, and the elaborate rituals of the feast days and special devotions, and purgatory, etc. etc. etc…I just feel very much at home within the Church.

As for how God speaks to me, I wish I knew. For some time now, I’ve been having problems with discerning what God wants me to do with my life. I think that, in general, God speaks to you by pulling you in a particular direction – you know, inspiring you to feel an attraction to a particular field of work, or by allowing you to see certain patterns in events that make it clear to you that you should act in such and such a way.

In the case of your girlfriend, I think it’s pretty unlikely that she heard an actual voice from the heavens or saw the clouds part and a finger emerge to point her towards motherhood. She probably discovered something within herself (a trait, an aversion, an interest) that signified to her that she would be a better wife and mother than a nun. Hell, I was thinking about becoming a nun for a while, but then I realized that I was looking at the religious life as a way to escape the real world, and I also utterly lack the virtue of obedience. (Just like my dad – that’s why he left the seminary.) As attractive as nunhood is, I know it’s just not for me.

I hope this helps. :slight_smile: You are welcome to email me or ask more questions on the board, if you’re interested.

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No apologies necessary . . . I’m enjoying all of this very much! By all means, use this thread to debate whatever you like!

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Gallows fodder,

Thank you very much for sharing your stories and beliefs! I think that you described your faith in the exact same way that my GF would. I can see how the Catholic faith can be really special and meaningful to someone when I look at it through their eyes, knowing a bit about their background and personality. Especially since I started dating her, I’ve really reexamined why I feel the way I do about Catholicism. I didn’t do this with any sense of trying to become Catholic; I’m not searching for “the light” or anything like that. I’m comfortable with where I stand spiritually. However, since I hadn’t thought about it in a while (had made up my mind long before that it wasn’t for me), I thought about the teachings of Catholicism quite a bit so that I would know where I stood more clearly. What came of this reexamination is that I reaffirmed most of the problems I had with Catholicism, let a few slide, and then found many more problems that I didn’t have before! Basically, my negative experience with Catholicism runs far too deep for me to ever worship in that way. Religious statues and ideas and functions that make you feel comfortable make me very uneasy. This negative experience has shaped part of who I am and how I think, and since I am happy with who I am and how I think, I doubt I will never feel otherwise. The Catholic Church, despite many positive things that come from it, will mostly evoke only negativity in my mind. And I’m fine with that; I don’t have any void in my life spiritually. Catholicism is not for me. The only reason that I feel it’s unfortunate is how it relates to my relationship with my girlfriend.

When I started dating my GF, I did not realize exactly how religious she was. This gradually came to light the more we got to know each other. At first, I naively felt that maybe this was a phase or something, especially when I found out that she wasn’t always this devout. But over time I realized that her version of not-devout was probably still a lot more devout than your average Catholic! She sends birthday cards to the pope (always referred to as the Holy Father!). Although it is fun to debate sometimes, all of ours have ended with agreeing to disagree, which is somewhat awkward and frustrating on both ends. Now I know that these debates are a waste both of our time that we could spend doing something more meaningful and less frustrating. If she was to decide that she no longer agreed with Catholicism, I don’t want to be the catalyst because I’m sure that it would be a traumatic experience and I don’t want to be the cause of that. So I think that I’ll pass on these debates in the future and simply enjoy our time together.

Thanks again for sharing your beliefs. It’s really helpful, because I feel like I understand my GF much better now. I think you two would get along great!

I do have a question that I’m curious of your answer. This is one of the “new problems” that I found with Catholicism. In a previous post, I alluded to how I can’t fathom that God would let anyone but the most heinous people go to hell. Why is the alternative to loving Him so severe? Doesn’t that seem to contradict the view of a loving God? I’m familiar with God giving us the gift of free will. But nobody in their right mind would choose to burn in hell! And if it is our choice to love Him or not, don’t you think that he should make it a lot more obvious what it takes to get into heaven? If you aren’t baptized, does that mean that you can’t get in? What about all those people who were never even exposed to Catholicism? Are they damned or are they just waiting in a super long line in purgatory?

Purgatory also seems pretty far-fetched to me. The contrast between heaven and hell is too drastic, so “oh yeah, well, um . . . there’s this place called purgatory, where you go in the interim before you’re allowed in heaven . .” How does that work? God weighs how sinful you were, gives you a lot of prayers and a Bible, and then if enough people pray for your soul and you wait long enough you get in? I don’t know about that whole idea. It seems like a way to make the afterlife more palatable.

Overall, to me it seems that an all-powerful and all-loving God would not make everyone jump through a bunch of hoops, reveal himself a little here, a little there, allow miracles in a foreign country that is nowhere close to me, and if you don’t believe and worship sufficiently you are going to burn in hell. How is that loving? It seems to me that it is fear, not love, that requires Catholics to believe, because if you don’t, guess what? You’re toast!

And it also seems to me (I have no source, this is an idea, take it how you will) that in the old days of the Catholic Church (medieval times) it made it really easy to keep the peasants submissive, dutiful, and willing to give all their money to the Church. “Don’t worry if your life sucks now . . . because after you die, if you’re good enough and give enough money to the Church, you get eternal bliss with God! Oh, and if you don’t, you’re going to burn in hell.”

The Church I was raised in preached that as a Catholic, you are required to give 10% of your income to the Church! (unrelated to the question, had to throw it in, though . . .)

If God holds us to the Catholic standard, does that mean that the majority of us on Earth are screwed? If that is the truth, then why doesn’t he eliminate all doubt, fully reveal himself, and then give everyone an equal opportunity to love him?

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Please excuse the sarcasm within my rant . . . I truly do respect your opinion and am truly anxious to know.

Thanks again . . . I am learning quite a bit. Although I know that I’ll never be Catholic, my respect for the religion grows as I meet more and more people involved with the religion such as yourself.

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Rhino,

Looking back through this post, I can see that a number of people were perturbed by your statement that your GF was “told by God to marry and have babies” (or somesuch, I’m paraphrasing). Can you elaborate on exactly what she meant by this?

If I can speak in her defense to everyone else…what I suspect she meant is that she feels a “calling.” Catholics are supposed to explore the concept of a “vocation” as they grow older. There’s three, and they’re obvious: you’re a priest, you’re single, or you’re married. Most people end up getting married, so it’s safe to say that it’s a “default” for most people.

I suppose the best way to describe it is that it’s a Catholic’s (or anyone’s, really) sense of which lifestyle is best suited to them. Consider: if you’re a lawyer or a doctor for a living, you probably have a “calling” to that profession in the sense that you have an internal drive to do that thing. You can’t explain it; you just realize your talents fit in that area and you feel most comfortable doing it.

Vocational lifestyle is a similar issue for Catholics (remember, both marriage and holy orders are considered sacraments, and they’re typically exclusive, so for the deep Catholic, this is a big issue). My guess is that rhino’s girlfriend went through a self-exploration a few years ago to determine what to do with herself, and through prayer and thoughtful consideration, determined that she’s called to the married life (and for the orthodox Catholic, that necessarily entails having children. “Be fruitful and multiply” and all that.)

I went through it a few years ago myself when I considered the priesthood. I prayed about it a LOT, since this was going to have a major impact on my life’s direction (plus, I’d never be able to have sex). I ultimately decided against it. God “spoke” to me in the sense that certain pointers and opportunities came up in my life that I felt more comfortable taking, i.e., I was offered a scholarship to a new law school. And hey, I’m engaged now, so the priesthood is definitely out (although I still toy with the notion of becoming a deacon). I’d wager that rhino’s girl had a similar process to mine.

Now, if the heavenly host IS manifesting itself in her bedroom, that’s another matter… :wink:

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Rhino,

Looking back through this post, I can see that a number of people were perturbed by your statement that your GF was “told by God to marry and have babies” (or somesuch, I’m paraphrasing). Can you elaborate on exactly what she meant by this?

If I can speak in her defense to everyone else…what I suspect she meant is that she feels a “calling.” Catholics are supposed to explore the concept of a “vocation” as they grow older. There’s three, and they’re obvious: you’re a priest, you’re single, or you’re married. Most people end up getting married, so it’s safe to say that it’s a “default” for most people.

I suppose the best way to describe it is that it’s a Catholic’s (or anyone’s, really) sense of which lifestyle is best suited to them. Consider: if you’re a lawyer or a doctor for a living, you probably have a “calling” to that profession in the sense that you have an internal drive to do that thing. You can’t explain it; you just realize your talents fit in that area and you feel most comfortable doing it.

Vocational lifestyle is a similar issue for Catholics (remember, both marriage and holy orders are considered sacraments, and they’re typically exclusive, so for the deep Catholic, this is a big issue). My guess is that rhino’s girlfriend went through a self-exploration a few years ago to determine what to do with herself, and through prayer and thoughtful consideration, determined that she’s called to the married life (and for the orthodox Catholic, that necessarily entails having children. “Be fruitful and multiply” and all that.)

I went through it a few years ago myself when I considered the priesthood. I prayed about it a LOT, since this was going to have a major impact on my life’s direction (plus, I’d never be able to have sex). I ultimately decided against it. God “spoke” to me in the sense that certain pointers and opportunities came up in my life that I felt more comfortable taking, i.e., I was offered a scholarship to a new law school. And hey, I’m engaged now, so the priesthood is definitely out (although I still toy with the notion of becoming a deacon). I’d wager that rhino’s girl had a similar process to mine.

Now, if the heavenly host IS manifesting itself in her bedroom, that’s another matter… :wink:

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Thanks for explaining it better, ResIpsaLoquitor, because that’s what I thought was going on, too. My own husband considered being a priest when he was young, but he decided that science interested him more than religion (much, much more these days). He also has always wanted to be a dad. You could say that God called him to be a husband and father (and an engineer)…but it isn’t like God came down with a thundering voice and told him that that’s the only thing that he could ever do! If you’re non-religious, like me, you would say that my husband decided that he would rather be an engineer and a husband and father than a priest. Religious people tend to give God the credit.

And why isn’t being a spouse and parent an honorable calling? I’d hazard a guess that my husband thinks that his family is more important than engineering. We aren’t all world leaders, scientists, inventors, etc., but many of us can make a lasting difference in the world simply by raising our children well.

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I assume you’re asking this rhetorically, but anyway: as I understand it, the priesthood is considered a “higher” calling, but not necessarily a “better” one than marriage.