First, The Ryan, I never said that I thought that I was doing people a favour by honouring them with my presence - quite the opposite, I said that at my OWN wedding, I felt honoured that people came. I was just trying to point out that there is another perspective on who is being done the favour. I am certainly not conceited, and I hope that I am not rude. Yes, the people giving the wedding get to set the rules, but they cannot be surprised if people are offended (or decline the invite) if significant others are excluded or made to feel unwelcome.
Generally, I can see that my view of weddings is out of synch with everyone else in this thread, so I’ll leave (politely) after this, but I want to make one point:
There’s been a lot of discussion about “etiquette”. I don’t know the first thing about etiquette, but I do have a view of what constitutes good manners, namely: putting people at their ease, making sure that nobody feels left out or uncomfortable, marginalised, embarrassed, unwanted or that they are some sort of social misfit. If you are the host, then you are responsible for making sure this does not happen to your guests. The guest’s responsibility is to have a good time without embarrassing the host or other guests.
Someone said “a wedding is not a party”. Well, the ceremony isn’t, but the reception is, and the same general principles of good manners apply.
I see quite a lot of people on this board claiming that traditional-style weddings are ridiculous. If an elopement or a very small and simple event is what works for you, then great. But there is no reason to think that a traditional-style wedding is automatically “evil.”
I guess I think that there is some serious sampling bias going on here. You only hear about the weddings where something was unbelievably tacky or somebody freaked out or something went wrong. If everything went smoothly, there’s not much to talk about. (Well, some people like to discuss wedding details ad nauseum, but fortunately, they’re usually forced to seek out other people who are interested.) Since you really only hear the horror stories, it seems like the average wedding is an absolutely horrendous experience for everyone except the Bridezilla. It isn’t always like that.
People in this thread are discussing the rude things their guests did in response to wedding invitations. Why would I have posted my experiences? They’re irrelevant to the discussion because nobody did anything rude. Everybody RSVP’d more or less on time. Nobody brought any uninvited people. There were no no-shows. Every person was invited by name. Coupled people were invited with their partners. Single people were invited by themselves, but all of the single people that we invited knew plenty of others there and were seated with them. As far as I know, none of them were offended that they weren’t asked to bring a “guest.” Yawn. I’m boring myself even typing this.
So, it’s not that weddings are “evil,” it’s that it’s only the evil ones that are worth talking about.
I don’t agree with this. According to Miss Manners, “[a]cknowledgement of the expectation that people will give you money, or any other present, when you marry is rude.” Miss Manners’ Guide for the Turn of the Millenium at 642 (emphasis added). I don’t insist that you agree with this, but neither do I think it’s wrong. And I don’t think you’re in a position to insist that I’m wrong about it.
Look, surely you can see that if you are dealing with authorities that reach diametrically opposed conclusions – one says a practice is correct, the other says it is not – then agreeing with one is tantamount to concluding that the other is wrong. We are not talking about “cultural” or “traditional” differences. We are not talking about a traditional wedding among the Masai – we’re talking about two authorities dealing with the same exact question of modern American wedding etiqueet and decreeing different answers: One says it’s okay, the other says it’s rude. Agreeing with one automatically means you’re disagreeing with the other.
I do think my way is more correct! Obviously. Or else I wouldn’t follow it, would I? If that by extension includes the implication that others who disagree with me are less correct – well, I’d sure take assistance on how to state the opinion without the less palatable implication tagging along. But I don’t see how you can convey one without the other. Certainly I would want to do so – and in fact tried my very best to do so – but the fact that you felt I was being “condescending” or “superior” indicates I was not successful. Do you have some suggestion for how I could be honest about my own opinions and still manage not to imply that others who do not hold them are – if not wrong, at least not as strictly right? Because I’d do that if I could, but I don’t see how it can be done.
The fact is, I do believe that such things as dollar dances and other appeals for gifts are improper, and equally improper is the idea that gifts are some sort of quid pro quo exchange for a catered chicken dinner and a glass of champagne. Gift registries and response cards are IMO okay because they are practical responses to common problems, but they are nevertheless less than perfectly proper. IMO. Obviously this means that I do believe some things are “more correct” than others, and while that is of course a matter of opinion, this happens to be mine.
I seems like you’re asking me to say that things are okay that I do not in fact believe are okay, or to say that passable things are ideal when I don’t think they’re ideal. I *do[/i in fact believe that my conclusions on these matters are “superior” or “better” than those reached by others. This should be obvious: If I didn’t think one option was better than the other, I’d hardly have chosen that option and rejected the other, would I? But I CERTAINLY never said that ANYONE was ill-mannered. I only said what I would do, and what I believed was correct.
I was extremely careful to say that I speaking only of my own choices and what I thought was proper. I have not presumed to pass judgment on anyone else’s choices, except to the extent that they might have chosen to do something I’ve admitted I don’t believe is strictly proper under the rules of etiquette that I adhere to. And even then I didn’t say a word about what they would do, should do, or might have done, but only spoke for myself.
If you know of a way to convey that a given course of action is improper, in the presence of a person who followed that course of action, without coming across as superior or condescending, I would love to hear it, because that certainly is not how I intended to appear, nor, I daresay, how SCARLETT intended to appear. But you can hardly expect us to act like something is okay that we don’t think is okay.
You yourself have declared that in your opinion dollar dances are tacky, and at least one poster here had one, so I guess you’re as guilty of being “superior” and “condescending” as I was.
And don’t get me wrong – I’m not pissed off about this. I do see that I might have come off that way. I just don’t see how I could have done any better than I did to try NOT to come off that way. How do you ever say IYO someone else is wrong and you are right, and not come across as believing you’re “more correct” or “better” than they on that one particular issue? Because at the end of the day that’s exactly what you do think.
And if people can’t deal with others believing their behavior is not in every respect the acme of politesse all the time, then maybe as GAWD suggests they should “grow a skin.”
Well, at least I wasn’t the only one that saw Scarlett and others as coming off a touch on the Huffy side. Thank you Shayna for putting it a little less…Cromagnon-esque than I could have. That’s why I’ve always liked you
We plan to invite some single people to our wedding as singles. The ones we have on our list are coming with family members, so they’re not going to be without company - just without a date. THAT is the easy part of making the guest list. If one of them misunderstands the invitation and replies that they’ll bring a guest, I don’t think we’ll say anything about it.
Oh for Christ’s sake. No shit, Guin. Of course the unexpected guest (who, by the way, probably has no idea they were uninvited–was the guest to grill their date on the exact wording on the outside of the envelope?) is in the wrong. But what the very sensible mrsface’s post would suggest is proposing is that if such an unofrtunate thing happens, the bride and groom fall back on their good manners and treat that person as kindly as anyone else.
You can stoop to the lowest common denominator of your least-considerate guest, if that’s what makes your sanctimonious, unforgiving ass feel vindicated, and treat them rudely, look astonished at their arrival, judge their gift harshly, call them a dumbass behind their back, or whatever.
BMalion, I’m still reeling over your story. This woman needs a thread all her own in which you detail even more of her antics. There must, without a doubt, be plenty.
I was man enough to stand my ground and insist on no “money dance” it just felt tacky.
I caved in to the pressure of my friends and we put ourselves on a gift registery. I still wince with regret when the subject comes up.
Yes, I and others have wedding “horror stories”, but, then again, those are the stories I have the most fun telling. All in all I’m glad I got married. I enjoyed our wedding.
For me talking about the nuances of etiquette and protocol is something of a hobby, (I must have been C3PO in a previous life). I love to read Miss Manner’s column the way sports fans pour over statistics, it’s fun.
Maybe my mistakes or stories will help others or amuse. either way…
to be fair to my wife, my own mother could inspire a thread or 2, God bless 'er.
What are the odds of 2 people marrying, from the same small town, whose own mothers live in the same small town, the wedding is held in that small town and yet they meet for the first time at the wedding itself!
Jodi, in another book she states that a gift registry is okay because you’re not telling the other person what to get you, you’re merely conveying your wishes to a neutral business establishment which the other person can then frequent or not. There’s “just enough distance for this to be acceptable.”
I think it’s in Excruciatingly Correct Behavior but I don’t have it on hand to check.
Jodi, what would you tell people that ask you where you are registered or what you want
eed? Also, how on earth do you plan a reception if you haven’t sent response cards? Do you just plan on everyone you invited attending and suck up the expense if they don’t show?
I believe the correct way to handle a gift registry is thus: Go ahead, just don’t send notice out in the mail with the invitations. If someone asks, then tell them where you are registered.
If an invitation came to me addressed to me alone, I would assume that I was to attend on my own. Now that I am married, I would expect that an invitation would come to Mr. & Mrs Us. I would not assume that my husband was invited; I would call and ask the bride.
Traditionally, one is supposed to respond to a wedding invitation not with a response card, but with a formal letter accepting or declining the invitation (Amy Vanderbilt, to throw another etiquette great into the mix).
However, most people won’t know this, and so people include response cards to make the point that the invited need to RSVP.
I suppose that it’s possible to make phone calls to everyone on the guest list to find out if they’re coming. It would certainly work for a small wedding. Hey, if someone wants to make more work or expense for themselves so as to follow the rules of traditional etiquette, why should any of us care?
Mostly, wedding seem to be about providing a plethora of excuses for people to get their panties in a bunch. In the last few years, all my friends got married and threw medium-to-large weddings. And just about everyone involved with the weddings got themselves into a god-awful snit about something courtesy or etiquette related.
When it comes to weddings, people in general need to relax and be more understanding of the pressures that coordinating such an event causes in just about everyone involved. People who pitch fits over wedding traditions just seem to drain the happiness and fun out of it for everyone, including themselves.
(I have one story over at Wedding Etiquette from Hell, or whatever that website is called, and I could list off about 20 more hideous bitchy fits that resulted just out of 3 weddings! Because of this, I’m now thoroughly convinced that weddings are a big waste of money and energy.)
It probably doesn’t matter because they won’t listen anyway. My wife-to-be and I combined households when we got engaged. We already had a considerable volume of stuff. (Eva Luna, who helped me move, can testify to this.) Particularly a lot of basic housewares.
Because of this, we decided not to register anywhere, and tell people that in lieu of gifts, they should consider making donations to one of several charities that were important to us, such as the animal rescue/ shelter from which we obtained the amazing jeevdawg. Despite this, we still get people calling us saying “oh, but we still want to get you something!”
I have no horse in this race (not expecting to be married for at least 20 years), but I do have two questions/opinions.
As far as registries go, I always thought the purpose of a registry was to give those who wish to gift the couple an easier time of it. Instead of 23 fondue pots, they can see what other people have bought and buy something different.
And as far as such things as dollar dances go, I’ve never been to a wedding that didn’t have one. Every relative I’ve ever seen married has had a dollar dance. I always thought they were an accepted part of American wedding tradition.
Just a cautionary note…my step-cousin married into a family who totally dug themselves into a hole with our family at the reception. The way they looked down their noses at things that were, to us, age-old tradition, such as the dollar dance, the chicken dance (don’t ask), and our tarantella dance (Italian family), made them permanent butts of our family grousing for years.
I’m not sure I’d have a strong opinion on this subject if not for my friend, Tina. She, her fiance, and their families planned a very large, very beautiful wedding … at which I was genuinely honored to be the maid of honor. They sent invitations, requested RSVP’s, the whole 9 yards. She was extremely into Miss Manners so, God love her, she did everything to the letter.
Nearly 350 people RSVP’ed … only 76 showed up. Seriously, guys … I’ve never seen a more devastated bride. Barely a third of the wedding cake was eaten … the little “side” cakes (linked by little stairs), the extra sheet cake, and the entire bottom layer of the main tier weren’t even touched. The next morning, we returned 13 untapped kegs to the liquor store … I ate peanuts and mints for MONTHS afterward … it was a total disaster.
It was OCTOBER … no hurricanes … no blizzards … and NO reason for that kind of thoughtlessness. The worst part of it was that it wasn’t even intentional … it was like some kind of horrible alignment of the planets that 150 couples thought, “Hey … let’s blow off that wedding tommorrow …” Some were professional associates of HER father, some co-workers of HIS mother and father, family members from BOTH sides … if it weren’t for the fifty or so friends that came, there wouldn’t have been anyone there but the wedding party.
I learned one thing from it … if you get a wedding invitation, look at the envelope … if it says “and guest” then bring someone … if it doesn’t … then come alone or don’t come at all. And by-God if you RSVP, you BETTER SHOW UP unless you, or a member of your immediate family, is in the hospital. If there’s a blizzard or some other weather-related calamity, then pick up a PHONE.
<Yet another reason why me and the hubster flew to Vegas and eloped years later …>
