There are many differences, but one of the biggest is power dynamics. In a patriarchal and white supremacist society, even when it’s substantially less bad than in the past, the power dynamics can be very significant even in ways one might not instantly recognize.
That’s some fine gibberish you got going on there.
Not if:
a) He knew it was wrong and was working on fixing it.
b) He kept his views to himself.
Or, that is, I might consider him a racist but I’d view racism as his secondary problem, not his primary one.
I’m not really talking about how people treat other people. Ethically, people should be treated with equal respect. I’m talking about how they are perceived. To me, there is a world of difference between what your brain thinks, and what you do with those thoughts. I got in big trouble for calling out women who did the ‘‘I hate all men because of <sob story>’’ routine, but I threw a wrench in the machine when I identified myself as a survivor of sexual abuse and still vehemently opposed that general line of thinking. But that doesn’t mean I don’t empathize, or understand that experience of feeling threatened. PTSD is hell.
And in the case with my father in law, I removed myself from the situation. It was actually a very specific situation where I was working, alone, in an office with him. As I used to work, alone, at my adopted father’s business with him it was just a bit much for me. And actually, come to think of it, it happened less than a year after I stopped working for my adopted father (I had a lot of pressure to reconcile, so I tried to go back to work with him when I was about twenty.) I didn’t even tell my FIL the problem, I just made up some other excuse and stopped working there. I now walk with him (alone) at the local hiking trail every Friday, so it seems to have been a very context-specific situation.
I agree with iiandyiiii that there really is no direct comparison. Racism is a quick and dirty analogy at best, but it ignores a lot of context, the power dynamics at play, and so on and so forth. If you are going to immediately discount all of that as gibberish, it’s probably not worth debating.
Never heard of it before. Is that more SJW made-up bullshit?
You do understand that “discussing race” is not the same as “racism”, right? Because SJWs generally don’t. And in my example I was doing neither. I called my brown dog a dingo, that’s neither discussing race nor practicing racism.
It wasn’t that she correctly identified a racist, it was that she incorrectly accused a non-racist of being a racist. In a comically stupid way. And this is helpful to the cause… how exactly?
False. Racism is everywhere but not everyone is a racist.
It’s a challenging issue that requires a lot of thought and nuance. I may not be doing a great job of explaining my views, but I’m trying my best.
Missed the edit window. I wanted to add:
PTSD is hell. It’s not a rational place to be. But to take that irrationality and codify it into some kind of manifesto is what I find troubling.
Fair enough. I withdraw my gibberish comment. Plus it was kind of rude, but in my defense this is the Pit 
Fair enough. But everyone acts as if no men get PTSD. Or no men are raped or victimized or whatever. But nobody would suggest that a man cross the street to avoid another man. And nobody suggests that a woman who HASN’T been victimized or raped or anything is definitely being sexist by being afraid of a man. I guess I resent the fact that I should alter my behavior based on what OTHER people have or haven’t done. Doesn’t seem right to me.
I’m with you. I have two Maine Coons. If I was called a racist after giving the name of their breed to someone, especially if it was by a third party, I’d be angry. And somewhat amazed at the general ignorance of the person claiming racism.
I mean, for what it’s worth, I don’t think you should have to. I don’t think it’s healthy for women, even victimized women, to view all men as a threat. I think that viewpoint is neither helpful for men or for women. I don’t like the fast and loose generalizations about what men are like. I’ve chosen to surround myself with some very good men, so I kinda take it personally. I don’t think you’re obligated to kowtow to women’s traumatic experiences but I can also tell you it does mean a lot when people don’t take your discomfort personally. I was at my writer’s group a few months ago and my buddy was getting very much in my personal space. I was getting increasingly more anxious but really didn’t recognize the source, until one of the other guys made a comment like, ''Will you back up off her?" And yeah, I appreciated him articulating what I couldn’t in that moment. Neither of them took it personally.
As for men with PTSD… Listen, I would consider myself a sexual assault survivor advocate in the broadest possible sense, and that includes men. The problem is, it’s fucking difficult to figure out what is going on with men who are victimized. How many? In what context? How does that trauma express itself? No goddamn idea. It’s very hard to get male survivors to speak out, or even to identify themselves in anonymous surveys. So a lot of times, the reason we don’t discuss that issue specifically is that we don’t know a lot about it. I work for a sexual assault and domestic violence shelter that houses maybe 400 survivors a year, and is open to men… very, very few of our clients are men. They aren’t picking up the phone and asking for help. I don’t know why, but I’ve discussed this elsewhere, as a nonprofit development professional, there is no way to get funding for a problem unless you can demonstrate the need.
In any event, this is pretty much my point. I’m minding my own business, walking down the street, and now people are telling me:
“Hey it would be polite of you to cross the street”
“Yeah, why?”
“Because you are a man and you are scaring that woman”
“I’m not bothering her. That’s her problem”
“Yeah, well you have no empathy I guess. And you are rude”
I mean WTF? I’m being judged based on what others have done. And before anyone says “Yeah, that what non-white people have always experienced” then my answer is I know. And it’s wrong.
I’m not trying to take away the seriousness of rape or PTSD or whatever. I’m harmless, and being thought of as a bad person who might rape a woman on the street irks me.
That’s a useless concept in combating racism. Racism is something everyone is capable of and likely everyone is guilty of. the idea of a “non racist” as a type of person that can be identified is useless.
Using a term like “crying race” is a racist thing to do. Whether or not the person who did it admits to being “a racist” is irrelevant and nothing but a distraction from fighting racism in our society.
Identifying racism doesn’t require pricing someone is “a racist.” Constantly standing up and demanding that people agree that you are “not a racist” is an ultimately selfish act that does nothing useful for anyone except protecting your own self image.
Your attitudes, decisions, actions, and words very well might be influenced by racism. You might not realize it or might not admit it to yourself. But when someone suggests that it might be the case, you’re just helping preserve racism and white supremacy in our culture by making your insistence on “I am not a racist” your priority.
Well then shut up you racist.
HA!! Kidding!! I don’t actually think you’re a racist, that was just a funny thing to say. I thoroughly disagree with you that racism is something that “likely everyone is guilty of”.
“The sky is blue.” “RACIST!!”
“My brown domesticated dog sometimes acts like a wild canine native to Australia.” “RACIST!!”
“Water is wet.” “RACIST!!”
“Huh? Saying water is wet isn’t being racist.” “RACISM IS PERVASIVE IN OUR SOCIETY AND YOU JUST GOTTA SHUT UP AND ACKNOWLEDGE YOU’RE A RACIST BECAUSE DENYING YOUR A RACIST PROVES YOU’RE A RACIST!!”
“Oh, right, this is the stupid shit SJWs say thread. Carry on.”
Would cavalierly dismissing (perfectly understandable) objections to spurious accusations of racism as “white fragility” count? If not, why not?
Whenever I come across that attitude I’m reminded of this cartoon.
Did I tell you to “shut up”? No, what I said was that when someone suggests that something you said or did might have some racist effects, if you are interested in fighting racism, you will not try to establish your bona fides as “not a racist.”
Instead, take a step back and try to look at it from the other person’s point of view. You might or might not think there is racism in what you did, but, you know what, accept that something you did might strike someone else as racist, and maybe you ought to give that opinion credit no matter how not-a-racist you think you are and no matter how non-racist you think your motives are.
Sometimes someone else might think that something I did or said is racist or sexist or colored with some other kind of bias, prejudice, or bigotry. Why “Might”? It actually happens.
What I try to do is take that on board and consider it. What I don’t to is insist that everyone grant me the exalted status of “not a racist” or “not a sexist,” because, you know what, sometimes they might be right. And, even if, after thinking about it, I still don’t think I was being racist or sexist, I still often grant that perhaps I should stop doing or saying or thinking what I was doing or saying or thinking.
Sometimes that works, and I actually eventually change my mind. Sometimes I still end up thinking I’m right. Sometimes I realize that sometimes my actions or thoughts are going to be colored by some kind of prejudice and I should watch out for it.
And sometimes, I bet that I fail, and end up being both wrong and sticking to it. Because tribalism, prejudice, bigotry, racism, those things are inherent to the human mind, and you can’t expect yourself to be perfect all the time, but at least you can try most of the time.
And an essential part of trying is to stop insisting that you’re the one pure, untouched, unprejudiced, unbiased, non-racist and that everyone around you must grant that status to you before you will play ball.
And if at that point, you’re always a little uncomfortable about yourself and not quite sure what’s right, then you’re moving in the right direction. People who are harmed by racism are always in an uncomfortable place and not quite sure what’s going on. As a member of the majority group that largely does not suffer the harms of racism, it’s time for you to start being uncomfortable about your place in society, what you have, what you started with, what your children have, etc., in comparison with everyone around you. That discomfort is good to learn and to live with. Question yourself, like the victims of racism have to do all the time.
I am not entirely sure precisely what you’re asking, but if you’re insisting that everyone grant you the status of “not a racist” then you’re being selfish and fragile and you’re probably not going to help society improve on this issue.
I’m not asking to be granted any kind of status, and I’m baffled as to how you could get that from what I wrote. What I was referring to was this: Squallous gave an account of a run-in he/she had with some pious idiot at the vet who thought the word ‘dingo’ (as in Australian wild dog) was short for ‘Mandingo’ (a racist epithet). Squallous, rightly upset that some stranger would just presume him to be the kind of person who casually slings around racist slurs in public, gave her a piece of his mind. You dismissed this reaction as ‘White Fragility Syndrome’. I’m asking: Are you prepared to concede that your casual dismissal of Squallous’s experience could be motivated by racism of your own? If not, why not?
I agree that Squallous was rightly upset and I’m not clear why there have been comments to the contrary. Some white lady accused him of being a racist based on apparently no evidence or even basic grounding in what she was claiming. While I’m not inclined to argue in public, I would be pissed off too.
Did you even read past my first sentence? There’s your answer. If you want to be the center of it all, I certainly won’t try to stop you.