Suggestions for dealing with school insults

In My Humble Opinion
21

Never a dull moment in casa Dinsdale. Who needs to worry about things like paying the bills, or personal growth and fulfillment, when you can spend countless hours wrangling with school authorities about schoolyard namecalling!

Jr. Dins came home and told us the vermin - John - got into another fight with another kid - who happens to be our neighbor. I guess John was saying all kinds of shit to kids, including our neighbor, who pushed John, and they had to be separated. Both kids got a referral (one step less than suspension.)

Ms. D. called the principal and asst. principal to see why this was a referral, and our was a suspension - and what they intended to do about John. Ms. D. asked what was wrong with John, that we were supposed to be willing to tolerate. As predicted, they claimed privacy. When Ms. D. persisted, they said John os “emotionally disturbed.” Apparently he had not been receiving any counselling or special services. I don’t know if his parents opposed them, or simply didn’t pursue them. I know when it became apparent that Jr. Dins had a mild neurological disability, we DEMANDED that the school provide what it could.

Yesterday in gym, John was on the other volleyball team, saying how my son’s team was going to lose because my son is gay. I guess the gym teacher told him to stop it, and John yelled back something along the lines of “What do I care - I don’t have any friends anyway.”

So very sad. And a little bit scary. Hate to over-react, but I hope his parents don’t keep a bunch of guns lying around the house!

We told Jr. Dins that it is important that he ignore this kid. I guess if he is so entirely without social contact - any response - whether an insult or a punch in the nose - is welcome to him.

The whole thing is so sad, that a young boy could be so unhappy. But, as sorry as I might feel for the kid, I don’t want it to continually impact my kid. And I have only so many resources I wish to allocate to his and his family’s problems.

Ms. Dins (also a lawyer) was in fine form. She used me as the bad cop - saying if I were to deal with this I’d be in the district superintendant’s office the next day. The principal asked what we wanted to be done. We said we wanted to be involved at an early stage if there was any future need for discipline concerning my kid and John. And we asked that steps be taken that my kid not have to experience this abuse/harassment. If this happened to an adult at work, they would file a lawsuit for hostile work environment. If it happened in society, you could request a restraining order. They agreed to our requests.

According to the principal, these recent events will trigger a formal review process resulting in formation of an IEP (Individualized Educational Plan). Again, I don’t know if John’s parents actively opposed this, or simply did not pursue it. Or if the school felt it lacked an adequate record to trigger one on its own. I have no idea what the nature or cause of John’s particular emotional problems is supposed to be - and am hesitant to personally contact his parents. For all I know, he might be disturbed because his homelife is so fucked up. And, at this point, I hope we are able to step back, and not be seen in our rather small community as the family who has it out for this other family.

John also is going to be removed from my kid’s gym class - at least for a while. We had asked that they not be in the same classes last year. They thought it would be taken care of because my kid is in the faster track classes, and John is not. But they forgot about gym.

I guess I should be thankful to John. Thanks to him, I have had the opportunity to discuss with my kids the exact meanings of dildoes, distinctions between whores and prostitutes, dominant and submissive homosexual roles and behavior, and many other fun topics. A far cry from the dinner conversations I recall as a wee laddie!

22

Contrary to what some others have advised, I say teach him to fight, then let him. Having someone insult you like that and not answering it with immediate action will only encourage bullies. Yeah, you can ignore it, and maybe it’ll stop. But a swift crack to the jaw will do it quicker and is more likely to be permanent. Maybe its out of line to say that, but it show I feel and how I dealt with those problems. In each instance (well, ok it only happened twice) a short 2-3 minute brawl corrected the insults. I got suspended, but it was well worth it. I actually became civil (though never really friendly) with both kids.

23

bongmaster - perhaps you missed that my kid DID fight him already - and got the best of it - and got suspended. And, the kid’s insults have continued pretty much unabated since the mutual suspension.

And my kids all know how to defend themselves. I trained and instructed various striking, grappling, and weapons arts for over a decade. My son is at his best on the ground, while my youngest daughter leans towards kickboxing, and the eldest girl moves like a dancer with a stick and/or knife.

But I’m not sure how often I want my kid to be suspended for fighting. And I’m not sure how far I want my kid to push an emotionally unstable kid.

24

Trust you, Dins, to come up with a positive spin to the whole deal.

Hope that solution resolves it. We’ve dealt with a mini version of the same issue, only in preschool. :eek: I’m hoping the boy with the emotional problems who taunted and then later physically attacked my son (at all of age 3) doesn’t end up where John is, but I’m not holding out good odds.

BTW, a truly expressionless/emotionless reaction can indeed derail Abuse-type actions, because one of the fundamental processes in abuse is the attempt to process emotions that are ‘too scary/stressful’ by making someone else feel/express those same emotions. Abusers tend to be very good at getting someone else to feel what the abuser feels-but-cannot-process. So, whatever your son was feeling (shame, fear, anger, anxiety, unprotected, unsafe, etc.), chances are very good that those feelings are what John lives with daily and can’t handle. But you have to have a completely free-from-reaction response, or you’ve still provided the satisfaction/release reaction in the abuser. Even a slight change in body language can be enough to produce the feedback necessary to keep the Abuser going.

Neurologically speaking, the reflection of the emotion in someone else’s body language, voice tone, gestures, and facial expressions immediately reduces the stress associated with those feelings (for the abuser). It is the same function as bonding/attachment in infancy, when the parental slightly sad voice/face/gesture reactions to baby’s very sad noise/face/gestures helps calm the baby. Critical point is that the reaction must be of lesser degree than the baby’s, or the baby responds by escalating - parents know this as the ‘don’t panic when toddler falls down’ rule, where if you react like something is a huge big deal, it then BECOMES a huge big deal. Parents functionally adjust the child’s affect level, lower if you respond lower, higher if you respond higher (for good or bad reactions, BTW). If the response is disorganized or inappropriate (for example, anger when baby is happy, fear when baby is angry, sometimes responding in tune, other times not), the child doesn’t neurologically develop the ability to cope with the stress. But they keep trying to get that reaction, because the system is set up to demand it. So you get abusers. Abusers need that process to escape the tension of their emotions, needing someone to react appropriately for their own stress to reduce enough to cope. Which then leaves the abused with unprocessed emotions… etc. It can be either a physical or a social problem at the root, and the depth of the emotional problem in the abuser usually means that the ‘resolution’ is temporary, and must be repeated endlessly as a stress-reducing process. In other words, it is a quick fix, that doesn’t resolve on its own.

Check into Dr. Alan Schore’s work for more theories about how this can get set up in infancy, if you want to know. Interesting stuff.

25

Wow, that’s fascinating stuff, hedra!

As I read the story about the volleyball game, I wished I could be a kid there saying, “I’ll be your friend.” Maybe there is something about your son that makes him someone this boy would want to be around in a good way, he just doesn’t know how to have a positive relationship and as you said, seeks what social contact he can, even negative. Or maybe this rare moment of optimism is severely misguided. :confused:

26

Yeah, that is really interesting stuff, hedra. Like I said, I feel really sorry for John. I wish he were happy.

And gigi - I thought the same thing as you - momentarily. But the reality is my kids are fragile enough - I don’t see them having the desire or resources to take on this big of a social cause. I guess I may be being selfish or inconsiderate, but I already spend lots of time encouraging my kids to have positive social relationships and make good choices when it comes to friends.

So I’m not sure how much such an effort would take out of my kid. And he personally doesn’t seem to want to take it on himself - so I don’t see myself pushing him. When we asked my kid why John doesn’t have any friends, he said “because he doesn’t act like a friend to anyone.” Which made us feel good, cause we always tell our kids that “to have a friend you have to be a friend.” Nice to sense that a concept might be sinking in after only a coupla million repetitions!

My kids seem to have a good sense of themselves, and what’s right and wrong. But I feel they are potentially susceptible to “bad influences.” So while I do not pick my kids’ friends, I admit that I encourage them more when they hang with kids who seem to be directed in positive ways. Getting good grades, involved in positive activities, etc. On the other hand, when I encounter kids who seem sullen, get bad grades, and display no apparent interests besides video-games, I suggest my kids think about whether that is the type of kid they want to be particularly close to. Although they will hopefully be polite, pleasant, and friendly with as many kids as possible. And the final decision is always ultimately theirs.

Heck, my HS freshman’s best friend came out in 7th grade. Which caused many of their group to turn away from her. Now, a couple of years later, they are coming to the realization that she’s just a neat kid, and when they’re hanging out, watching videos, playing D&D, or whatever, it doesn’t really matter whether she likes girls or boys. (My daughter is really happy for her since she recently got a girlfriend - and threw a little party for them. To which the whole gang came and had fun.)

Part of this whole thing has been reminding my kid that calling someone or something “gay” is not really an insult. Which is a kind of touchy subject to deal with with a kid who believeves he is hetero, and is sensitive to being called “a girl.” I don’t remember Ward Cleaver addressing that one…

Hey hedra - you should stop by for dinner sometime. Mrs D thought some kinda line had been crossed the other day when the topic turned to “fudgepacking.” Yeah, I can’t quite see my p’s discussing anal sex with me over dinner. Will be interesting to see how - if at all - it affects my kids as they mature.

27

Gimme a couple of years. Right now, I think the topics might be misunderstood by the 5-year-old, and the 1-year-old probably will just be looking for things to throw, or animals to maul with glee. (though my older did get incensed that same-sex-marriage was illegal, and that was when he was about 3 years old… still, I think the degree of detail would be beyond his capacity to process without bringing it up in class and getting me in big trouble with the teachers)

I’m still sad for the kid who harassed my older son, too. It sucks to be them, truly.

28

My little brother was getting heckled in a high school class of his by some low-life, and my husband just happened to be doing some work at the school. Husband stumbled upon some kids trying to duct-tape brother to the floor. (I realize this may sound kind of funny, but put yourself in my brother’s shoes, and it won’t seem too funny anymore).

My husband went in and did a little threatening, and brother hasn’t had any more problems.

My point is: Is it possible for an older friend of your son’s to do a little threatening to the bully?

29

At this point, threatening is not the answer. Little John is so needy for attention that he’s turned to outrageous behavior in order to get negative attention - negative attention being better than no attention. There’s a type of bullying called reactive bullying, where a child with poor social skills does and says inappropriate things until another kid hauls off on them. Then the instigator goes crying to an authority figure that they’ve been bullied. It’s not exactly what’s happening with John, but pretty close.

IIRC, an IEP requires a medical diagnosis of some sort - which means there is already some sort of record on the kid’s emotional disorder or that the school is pushing to have the kid seen by a doctor or psychiatrist. The parents can refuse to cooperate, but if they do and the child’s behavior does not improve, the school can go to court or call in Child Protective Services under the allegation that the child’s needs are being neglected. That’s pretty far down the line.

In the meantime, Dins, if you have it in you to do any good for the kid, suggest to the principal and any teachers your kid and John have in common that they come up with a plan to give that needy child some positive attention on a regular basis. Maybe they can get a group of volunteer students to spend five minutes one-on-one time with him (and there shoud be a reward for the volunteers). Maybe a teacher or administrator or custodian or SOMEONE can make a point of buddying up to the kid. It stands as good a chance as any to help resolve this problem.

30

It might just be me, but I don’t think this is a good solution. I mean, rewarding a kid to be friends with an outcast? Put yourself those shoes.

I realize he wants attention and someone to be friends with, but if you were John, and you found out somehow that people were getting candy/extra playground time/whatever to spend time with you, I’d have to think you’d be pretty ticked off. I know I’d be upset if people started spending time with me only because they got rewarded by someone else…

31

And I am the only one who would break into a rendition of Lean on Me or whatever that song is?

32

Childhood Bullying and Teasing: What School Personnel, Other Professionals and Parents Can Do by Dorothea M. Ross

I came across this book in my library a few years ago and it seemed very well researched and practically oriented. I looked it up on Amazon and it appears a revised edition (adding “Violence” to the title) is coming in February.

It went well beyond the typical “ignore it/punch him in the nose/become the bully’s friend” advice. This is a serious problem and requires much more than the insights of a sitcom scriptwriter.

Dinsdale, I think you and your wife have the right attitude about this. It is incredible that our society has traditionally expected children to tolerate verbal, physical, and sexual assaults in school that would result in jail time if perpetrated on the street or in the workplace.

33

Just FTR, I didn’t mean to imply that your child wasn’t doing enough to reach out to poor John! I was actually surprised at my own reaction of wishing someone could reach out (having been the brunt of teasing a lot myself) and wanted to preserve this shred of tenderheartedness. In reality, it is risky and setting yourself up for potential trouble and would take a lot to do such a thing.

asterion; Well, after all, it won’t be long 'til I’m gonna need somebody to lean on. :wink:

34

Yeah, there’s almost a weird dichotomy going on even here on the boards. On the one hand there are threads like these, and the other parts of the one regarding tag here. In it some folks express the idea that kids need to go through bullying as a rite of passage and how will they handle themselves in the real world if they are “coddled” and their parents dart in every time they are hurt or threatened. That may be where this Great Debate came from.

I think there’s a way to teach kids that life can be hard without subjecting them to abuse by fellow students.

35

Update: yesterday Jr. said simply that John had been “suspended from gym.” So at least he didn’t have to listen to that stuff for one day.

phouka your suggestion sounds good. But the school employs all kids of professionals supposedly expert in handling such things. I can imagine it gumming things up to stick my well-intentioned but ignorant nose in. And I’m not exactly on the lookout for new social actions to expend time and energy on.

It is interesting to try to figure out what would improve this kid’s self esteem and attitude. But I have not even met this kid. And It is a pretty full-time job trying to keep tabs on and genmtly nudge my own kids’ developing characters. A better person than I might do more in that direction…

It is interesting the emotions something like this stirs up.
-Anger at the kid for being mean to my kid.
-Sympathy for the poor kid being so unhappy.
-Curiosity over what is going on in his household. What caused him to be like this, how aware are his parents, and what have they tried to do about it?
-Feeling of helplessness and frustration.
-And complex feelings about my kids growing up, and getting more exposure to a world that is not always nice and fair, and from which I will not always be able to protect them.

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I’ll keep you posted.

36

Hi; I know this thread is several days old, but I was just wondering…

Is it possible for John, Jr. Dins and a school counselor to have a meeting? If the two boys could discuss this in front of a mediator, that might clear the air a great deal. I don’t like this business of teachers/administrators/parents playing phone tag, so to speak, and conflicting stories piling up. “He did this…Well, he says he didn’t…Well, my son says he did.” That’s frustrating for everyone, and gives the administration the convenient excuse to avoid the problem as a waste of their time. John should be asked why he’s always picking on Jr. Dins, where Jr. Dins can hear it. That way, they can both be reassured that someone is listening to them, and the counselor will hopefully be able to suggest a way for them to work it out.

Good job so far, though, Dinsdale!

37

Hi Dinsdale, it sounds like the problem is finally being approached in the proper manner by the school administration. Yes, it is true, if the child has a disability there are privacy laws preventing the school from disclosing anything about it to anyone. And it is interesting that the school knew (and told you) that he had a disability, but he was not on an IEP (or section 504 or other kind of ed plan).

38

Insist that the principal give the kid an “administrative directive” that spells out no name calling or interaction period. If the kid violates an administrative directive he can be suspended and due process will beigin. Getting expelled is not far-fetched. If the kid has a label, he could be placed in an alternative setting.
Read the Student Code of Conduct. This should explain the rights each student should have. Our Student Code of Conduct is on the district web site.

Good Luck.

39

I had the reaction gigi did, that I wonder what would happen if Dinsdale’s son tried to be a friend to John, but I realize that I can be a hopeless optimist at times. I’m glad everything is starting to work out.

40

Hi all.

Several developments. Worked at home last Fri, which was the day my 2 middle schoolers had parent-teacher conferences. So I got to attend with Ms. D. After meeting with all the other teachers, we ended up in the gym speaking with Jr’s gym teacher.

To fully appreciate this, you must get a mental image of a stereotypical middle-aged male gym teacher. Go ahead, put him in shorts and string a whistle around his neck. There you go!

He said John was a pain in the butt. Said after Jr. hauled off on him, he wished he could have taken Jr. aside and given him a couple of bucks and told him “Way to go!. Buy yourself some cookies or something.” Said Jr. had been incredibly tolerant, the amount of grief he had taken from John before hitting him. Said John didn’t seem to realize that Jr. was just about the only kid who ever tried to be nice to John. Said John was suspended from gym for a prolonged period - several weeks. Said he would be spending the time with Ms. H. Not sure her title - counselor/therapist? Works with what used to be called “BD” kids. When John gets back to gym, he will be on a “one strike” policy - first outburst - including verbal, and he is back with Ms. H.

Gym teacher said Ms. H might be able to give us some tips to help Jr. deal with the situation. Said he thought best move was to completely ignore John, as he was so starved for attention that even an insult or a punch was welcome affirmation.

Aside - Jr. has/had a mild neurological disability - sensory integration dysfunction. He had an IEP in grade school, and got a bunch of therapy. We discontinued all of that in middle school. Long story short, the gym teacher was amazed to hear that. Said Jr. participates in all gym activities on a perfectly even level with the other kids. Said he never would have guessed. Which didn’t make me feel lousy! And I was glad to relate it to Jr. afterwards.

So, we went and introduced ourselves to Ms. H. Asked her if we could speak confidentially. She appeared surprised/flustered/uncertain, as she had never heard of us or Jr. before. Went into her office, asked 2 other people to leave, and closed the doors.

We said Jr. had gotten suspended for fighting with John. Said we understood privacy prevented her from discussing John’s situation. And said we didn’t really want to know what was wrong with him. While we wished he were happier, our concern was in trying to figure out how to help our kid deal with this situation, and not get into more fights, more suspensions.

I can’t adequately explain Ms. H’s response. She repeatedly said we “made her day.” She was so happy we took the effort to seek her out, to see what we and Jr. might to do help this situation. She said we were “real parents.” Which made us feel real good on one hand - but on the other hand, was a bit of a condemnation of the level of parental involvement in our upper-middle class community.

I guess we had assumed John was an idiot, but Ms. H said he is quite bright. She also opined that ignoring him was the wrong thing to do, cause it would not relieve him of the need to continue to seek out reaction. She said given his intelligence, he could be reached intellectually, and suggested Jr. say something like, “I see you are angry right now, John. And I am not going to respond to that. Let me know when you have something worthwhile to say.” And THEN walk away.

She said if we wanted Jr. to do this kind of thin, she would work with John to see if some small steps might be possible. Said John really likes marine biology, which might be something he and Jr. could discuss, other than their mothers’ sexual practices! Tho she said John would likely try to “one-up” anything Jr. offered.

She seemed shocked and tremendously pleased that we gave her our cards, and said we’d talk with Jr., and decide what, if anything more, we wanted to do about this. We restated that we had no interest in having Jr. and John be great friends, and didn’t want Jr. to take on a social project. She seemed totally in tune with what we were saying.

Ms. H also said John’s mom was really nice, and would really welcome a call from Ms. D. (Aside - from Ms. H’s and the gym teacher’s comments - as well as some things they DIDN’T say, I suspect John’s dad might be a real bastard. Also, John has an older and younger brother - neither of whom are behavioral problems.) Ms. D will probably call her in the near future. Maybe go out for coffee.

We got home and talked with Jr. At first he seemed worried we were going to make him try to be friends with John. He said, “In all seriousness, I’m not interested in being John’s friend.” I told him not to worry - we weren’t going to be setting up “playdates.” But we were trying to figure out ways to deal with this situation. And this might allow him to take active steps, and exercise some control. Which made some sense to him. He immediately came up with a bunch of questions about giant squids he thought might pique John’s interest. Jr.'s biggest interest is military history. I suspect he is viewing this as a situation where he can develop and implement “strategy.”

Bottom line, while the overall situation still sucks, at least we are struggling towards getting a frame of reference, and identifying possible strategies for addressing it. We feel at least we are getting more information, instead of being completely in the dark. And we got some affirmation from professionals that our instincts/efforts were appropriate.

Thanks again, all. I’ll keep you posted.