I don’t think she actually identifies as male. She seems to just be interested in not adhering to gender norms and right now is going through a more gender-neutral style phase. Where the other issues don’t strike me as being “phases”, the clothing/binding/style thing does, because she’s always looking at and experimenting with differing styles. And she would definitely tell me if she identified as a male…she’s (obviously) pretty open. But as always, I’ll keep listening to her and see where it goes.
Thank you all. It helps so much to get some feedback.
ETA: Thanks, Emiliana, I’ll ehck out those books and see if there is a local PFLAG.
FWIW, name changes have been pretty big in my family for quite some time, although they have typically been last name changes and also not for gender identity purposes, but for “I hate my dad” type reasons. I think everyone goes through something like that, but something about us makes it happen to a greater extent. Our family tree is quite messy because of all the people with alternate names.
It also helps to know that maybe I’m not overreacting to the name change; maybe I’m rightly grieving and should allow myself more leeway to do so.
It can be really helpful to connect with other parents of trans and gender variant kids. You can do your grieving with them and they’ll totally get it.
My boyfriend’s in his forties, and his mom still has trouble with the pronoun thing. It hasn’t prevented them from having a very close and loving relationship, though. And his mom started way behind the curve from where you are now. It’s a hard situation, but you’re doing really, really well with it.
kid should be themselves. interests are their interests.
by focusing on not acting gender norms is still letting others define you.
like what you like for your own sake, not to impress others.
wanting fairness for people is very noble. it is a philosophical point of view, not just a social/political movement. life occurs on lots of levels and facets.
I know it could be an offensive and condescending suspicion … but any chance she is being emotionally manipulated or even physically abused by someone?
It sounds like you have been very proactive and done a lot of research, but just in case you haven’t seen this one, here’s an article about a teen who is biologically a girl, but is going for more of a gender-neutral thing:
I think that a big part here is how traditional gender roles are completely messed up. Simply by knowing wether someone has boy parts or girl parts, we both consciously and subconsciously attach a BIG set of assumed qualities and traits to a person. Guys ‘should’ be into sports, rowdy, adventurous and so on. Girls ‘should’ be nurturing, pretty and demure. This creates a VERY narrow acceptable range where someone can express themselves. A sensitive guy who likes to take care of kids is often seen as gay or a pedo. A girl who is assertive and outgoing is quickly seen as bossy or a slut.
Your child* seems to have seen through all this bullshit, and wants to opt out of the restrictive traditional gender roles, at least for now. They don’t want to deal with the MASSIVE list of demands and expectations society has for both boys and girls. I admire you for supporting them, even if you have a hard time seeing what it’s about. I hope you can see they’re not rebelling against you, but against a system that tells them they should be either ‘A’ or ‘B’, when there’s a complete alphabet of ways to be a human being. There’s nothing wrong with your kid.
*(and I really wish you wouldn’t use the word ‘daughter’. Using different terms and pronouns for them in different situations is even harder than just sticking to the new ones, I’d think)
(nevermind about that last post, I didn’t catch one of your posts above)
If they don’t want to deal with the massive list of demands and expectations, isn’t it a little drastic to reject gender altogether? I’m not sure a girl should have to identify as gay or trans just so she doesn’t have to be nurturing or demure - I should think that trying to fit into a new box would create its own burdens.
My daughter’s also going through some of this. She has tried binders for social occasions but doesn’t want to wear them all the time, probably because they’re really uncomfortable. Getting one for your daughter to try out on a social occasion might make her realise that too.
She hasn’t asked people at school or even at home to use a different name, because at her chool she’d have no hope at all and it would lead to pretty intensive bullying. She does, however, use a different name most of the time among her friends and TBH the biggest issue I have with that is that the name she’s chosen is crap. I know, how much more shallow could I be? But why couldn’t she have chosen a cool name instead of one that sounds like a fifty-year-old mechanic with a mullet? If she asked me to use it, I would, but with the understanding that I’d get it wrong a ot of the time.
At least since she hasn’t made the name “official” in any way she can change it again very easily in the future. That’s what I’m concerned about with her and what may be an issue with your daughter. Pigeonholing yourself is not a great idea at any age, but particularly when you’re still at an age where self-identity is in a state of flux.
Most of her clothes are the kind of preppy shirts and jeans stuff you describe. With clothes, with a teenage girl, I would be a little careful that they don’t stand out too much as “other” just for self-protection purposes (except when out with a group of friends at the weekend or something, when they have safety in a crowd and can dress how the hell they like), but that preppy, boyish look walks the line just on the side of safe because it’s also somewhat in fashion. In fashion for boys, not girls, but still.
The only issue with the shirts is that they require a lot of ironing. Grr.
We have a lot of transgendered friends and I’ve been involved in transgender issues for a long time. I still get the occasional lecture on it from her, because she’s a teenager therefore she knows everything. 
I even get told about what it’s like to be gay, despite the fact that I am gay, have been in same-sex relationships for a couple of decades and my daughter doesn’t identify as gay.
I think she’s a bit pissed off that she doesn’t have an unaccepting mother to rebel against.
“They” is not something that is very common among the trans people I know in real life. Even the genderqueer among them don’t seem to expect everyone to use “they” all the time because they’re aware just how difficult it would be. I think it is a bit much to ask a school to use that pronoun and am amazed your daughter’s school has agreed.
Re: daughter. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that a genderqueer person also wants to drop the word daughter immediately. Transgendered people might do (IME they always do, but there could be exceptions) but a genderqueer person might not.
Plus in the context of this thread it would get difficult to follow without the word daughter, since there’s also a son in the picture, and this is about a daughter changing, where her assigned gender is the issue.
“Drastic”? The fact alone that you attach so much importance to a simple pronoun change shows how ingrained these roles are. Apparently, it’s a big deal to our society that everyone hangs on to the notion that women absolutely need their razors to be pink, and that a penis is an essential part to be a firefighter or a car mechanic.
Why did you use that word? Why is it so important that everyone stays in their preassigned place?
If men and women were actually treated the same, this wouldn’t be the big deal it now is.
SciFiSam; they asked not to be referred to in a feminine way. And I’m sure we can think of a way to refer to them somehow.
Also, I don’t think the mental gymnastics and doublethink required are helping Papergirl to not slip up in front of her kid.
Not a parent, so no advice, but holy crap you are awesome. The desire to support and love your child is so strong in your post.
I can only imagine the heartbreak of having a child reject the name you chose out of love for them. I doubt she understands the full impact of that decision on you right now.
But let me repeat - you are awesome!
You’re grieving, therefore you’re rightly grieving.
Who knows why this one thing was the thing that hit you hard, but it did. That’s real, and trying to paper over your feelings won’t work.
It sounds like you’re doing a great job of accepting and supporting your daughter as she deals with what she’s going through. But you need to accept yourself, and accept the reality and legitimacy of your own feelings, as well. You’ll be better for it.
Wait… what? How am I arguing that everyone should stay in their preassigned place? People should pursue their interests.
It’s telling that people are arguing against gender roles, but also arguing that if you have non-traditional interests you should change your gender.
You seem to be arguing that they should stick to their assigned gender, are you not?
And as for the “daughter” thing… in this discussion it’s not a neutral word. It’s about as respectful as referring to Barack Obama or Stephen Hawking as a girl.*
*they identify as male, last time I checked
I don’t think there is a need at this point to argue the use of “daughter”. She has not requested that I not use that term, and trust me–she would if it were unacceptable to her. The only change she’s requested so far is the name and pronoun usage. “They” just confuses me, even if I’m the one talking. She seems to accept that. “Daughter” at this point isn’t an issue with her.
LC Strawhouse, I don’t have any suspicion that she’s been victimized or abused. She’s pretty open with me and even more so with her therapist. It’s a natural concern, but I think not founded in this case.
Thanks for the links and input from everyone. When I’m not feeling sad about the specifics, it’s an interesting topic. And I do admire the bravery and fortitude she shows in finding her own path. Good, tough, sweet, smart kid.
What, when using the word daughter? Like I said, with genderqueer people it’s not always that straightforward. You have to go on what they prefer rather than what you think they’d prefer. Genderqueer is not the same as transgender.
As papergirl then says:
I’m really glad your daughter has such support from you and her surrounding community. Since she’s in therapy, hopefully she will be aware that this won’t always be the case - the surrounding community bit, at least.
And that it won’t always be because people are horrible bigots, but just because they are having trouble changing their habits. Sometimes it can be difficult telling the difference, but it is important to note that there is a difference.
This also would probably be something your daughter would hate to hear, at thirteen, but there is aways a possibility that she will change her identity again in the future.
I have, in person, known people who’ve been genderqueer, preferring to be known as no gender, who have then decided to be female, even though they were born female and it seemed they were fighting against that. It wasn’t “just a phase,” but they did have difficulty being accepted again as female after everyone thinking they were going to eventually be male. And these were people in their late teens, early twenties.
If gender is fluid, which your daughter probably ascribes to, then it has to allow for her being “female” again one day or at least not shutting it out.