This comment made me realize something. Her new name actually sounds more feminine (to me, anyway) than her given name. I’m sure I’ve mentioned her name on the boards before, but in the interest of privacy I’ll use an example: Her given name is along the lines of “River” and her new name (which is not legal at this point, of course, but used at school conversationally) is more akin to “Elle”. It’s a pretty name, at least.
Yes, I try to remind my kids as they grow…things–ideas, convictions, interests–change as you grow. Don’t overcommit to being something or someone you may outgrow later on. She’s pretty comfortable sort of going her own way and I expect if another path beckons, she won’t hesitate to make changes.
I don’t like assumptions being made about me any more than she does, and I refuse to allow her to pigeonhole ME based on her perception of my sexuality. She tries to refer to me as “heteronormative” and I just say, “You have NO IDEA about my sexuality.” It’s important for her to not pigeonhole other people in the way that she’s trying to avoid herself, and I think that’s a real issue that has to be addressed. It’s kind of a battle because she is learning that she too is guilty of labeling other people based on their sexualities or their bodies, and that’s a tough notion when you feel all enlightened.
“They” is often more difficult than referring to your daughter as “he” because it requires two grammatical changes, simultaneously. It requires a gender revision and a number revision. Not even swap! So it’s THREE changes: gender, grammatical number and thinking outside the gender binary! There’s more than 2 genders!
While we’re now learning that “they” is acceptable as a singular gender neutral pronoun, we all grew up knowing it as the plural gender neutral pronoun and have grown up thinking that English didn’t have a singular gender neutral pronoun .
If all you need to do is make a one to one predictable grammar swap from feminine pronouns to masculine pronouns, it’s surprisingly easy. Mistakes will be made, but not as many as you think, with a little practice. But to need to alter do many subconscious factors viciously requires…well…consciousness.
Drive your car, and you barely think about it. Drive someone else’s car, and you have to think and move deliberately, because things are in unfamiliar spots. The more different it is from your car, the more consciousness it requires. But soon, usually sooner than you think, it all works out, and you can drive the other person’s car as effortlessly as your own. Just takes practice.
These kids are growing up in the internet age, where they’ve learned from childhood that “they” is a singular gender neutral pronoun. It’s not quite so weird for them, but it’s really really hard for us on a level that has nothing to do with the gender issue, and everything to do with our language development.
This is what it feels like to be old fogeys, folks.
Did you tell her that this name change is hurting you a lot? You’re paying an extreme attention to her feelings, shouldn’t she also be aware of your feelings and pay some attention to them?
It’s easy to tell the whole world to call you by another name, they don’t care about it the slightest bit. Can’t she make a “mom exception”? I mean, relationships aren’t a one-way street, even between children and parents. They’re based on compromises, to make everybody as happy as possible. You can’t expect people to pander to your every whim. It certainly won’t happen once she’ll leave the protective environment of your house and even within this environment, it’s unhealthy to have such expectations.
I rejected wearing make-up reserved dresses for very special occasions, when I considered that I was doing other people a favor. Some things I did, like a ton of babysitting, and being a candy-striper in the hospital, were very girly, but other things, like riding my bike everywhere, even after I had a driver’s license, were less so. I bought pants in the men’s (or actually the boys, if I could find a size 18) section, because I had slim hips and they fit better than girls pants. I wore a lot of gender-neutral T-shirts, and I bought men’s shoes, because they ran wider and lasted longer than women’s. I don’t think anyone ever noticed. Certainly no one said anything. Pretty much, I chose clothes and activities I liked: I played D&D; I had a paper route in jr. high school; I read Torah after my bat mitzvah; I loved cooking. I don’t remember anyone questioning anything I did. I also never thought of myself as any kind of gender outlaw.
Now, maybe the pendulum has swung the other way, and there’s actually more gender division now than there was when I was a teenager, or maybe I was clueless, but I think that if papergirl’s daughter is rejecting gender, it’s a primary rejection, and not secondary to a rejection of gender roles.
Is it remotely possible that you gave DD an unconventional name, naming her a noun that isn’t generally thought of as a name, and DD has picked something that, while unusual, is something that registers with people as a name? Maybe this is just to facilitate people not using a pronoun with her, or maybe someone has teased DD for not having a real name. Or if you really did give “River” a name that is shared with a prominent actor (not-River Phoenix, but some other actor, maybe) there is someone else in class with the same name, and maybe that person is a really frilly girl, so that DD thinks of the name as really frou-frou, somehow, and not gender-neutral. “Elle” means “she” in French (and yes, I know it’s made up) but if the name your daughter picked has some similar feminine connotation for you that your daughter isn’t aware of, that might explain why it seems more feminine to you.
I’m speculating all that, just because I’m trying to give you something to work with besides “She took the beautiful name I gave her, and threw it back in my face, which makes me feel personally rejected.” Not that that feeling isn’t totally understandable, but it probably isn’t your daughter’s thought process at all.
I once wanted to change the spelling of my middle name, so it was easier for Americans to pronounce. My mother got her knickers in a knot over it, and I didn’t do it. My parents also got upset when I moved to Indiana to live with my aunt and uncle and started calling myself Rebecca. The whole leaving them for my aunt and uncle didn’t seem to faze them much, but rejecting my very Jewish name they gave me, which I thought no one would recognize, for a more familiar one knocked them for a loop. Turns out my parents were right, but for the wrong reasons. People in Indiana will call you “Becky” when you name is Rebecca, without asking if it’s OK, and that annoyed me to no end.
On a different note: is binding your breasts healthy? Can’t you cut off the circulation and possibly damage them? If she asks again, I’d check with a doctor. I know that FTMs do this, but it’s usually temporary prior to breast tissue removal they are already committed to, and the rare FTM drag performer does it, but just for a few hours a week. If your daughter is proposing to do it for eight hour stretches, 7 days a week, for an indefinite period, that might be a bad idea. IANAD, though.
I do think it’s perfectly normal for you to grieve the name change. It’s as if the identity you have your daughter suddenly isn’t good enough. I used to hate my name (too many morons pulling the same joke, which I was tired of by the time I could string a whole sentence together), but I always was very conscious that having it changed would be aking to saying that the thought and effort my parents had put into picking it wasn’t good enough.
It’s not the message she wants to give, but it is one she can’t avoid giving.
My mother’s name got changed when her family moved to Pamplona, because her baptismal name has several abbreviated versions and the one preferred in Pamplona isn’t the same as in the places where she’d previously lived. I’ve never called her by her childhood name, but her blood relatives of her generation and older do. Same with some of my cousins’ names; I’m reasonably sure that none of his coworkers have the slightest idea that my cousin Japi is called Japi by his relatives… (for them, he’s Javier, not a name derived from his older brother’s mispronunciations). As others have said, does you daughter realize that this name change is actually very difficult for you? Is she willing to accept having a special Mom’s-name?
No, because pronoun usage is not your gender role. You can say that someone has the right to define their own gender role, while also arguing that forcing the use of pronouns serves to shackle people to the very gender roles they are rejecting.
Use of “they” because you do not identify as fully male or fully female caries with it the baggage of saying that “he” and “she” necessarily imply 100% male and 100% female.
Now whether this is more important than the baggage of “he” or “she” for the individual genderqueer person, I cannot say. But I can understand the argument. It’s not about forcing someone into a gender role. It’s about rejecting them altogether.
To expound further: I bet I know what is happening. Gender neutral names tend to take on a gender identity of the people you associate it with.
For example, for me, Morgan is a girl’s name. Growing up, I only knew women with that name. It’s pretty gender neutral, but I can’t shake that association.
Your daughter has grown up an entire life hearing “River” associated with a female gender identity. That could make it seems more feminine to anyone.
Yes, I do, as I have explained both here and to her. As I have said, I don’t see myself using “they” anytime soon; my brain hears it as a “wrong” grammatical construction. I don’t disrespect her request, but this is a request that for right now doesn’t work for me. As with her name change, it’s nothing personal; and I do feel that while she can control her own behavior and make these requests, she cannot, and cannot expect to, control the actual words other people use.
I’ve discussed this many, many times with her. She gets it. It’ll be okay.
I’d speculate her name is only slightly uncommon (and not famous); I’ve heard it a few times over the years, about evenly split between males and females. I think she just wants to sort of reinvent herself. I’ve talked to her about the way I feel but I also have to take some responsibility for my response, and I don’t think laying a huge guilt trip on top of everything right now would be good. We definitely have a mom-compromise: I try to use her new name when I’m calling her or getting her attention, but in conversation (I use names a LOT when I talk), I tend to use her birth name. (And she is not allowed to correct me when I use her birth name.) I also use her other birth name and various nicknames just out of habit. The way it’s working is okay by everyone for now, I guess. And you know, as she grows older, she will introduce herself with her new name and that’s what people will call her, so I don’t think I can truthfully tell her the world just ain’t gonna accept it. (The pronoun usage, yes–some of the world just ain’t gonna accept it. :))
Re: the health aspects of binding. I haven’t done enough research yet to have a solid answer. Thinking about it when she brought it up, I speculated that probably she was aiming for de-emphasizing her breasts (she used to wear an B or C cup underwire) and thought the sports bra might be a good intermediary step. She seems very happy with it so far.
And BigT makes a good point: although her birth name isn’t really a girly name, she probably does see it that way. I’m okay with the new name as a name. It’s pretty and easy to spell and remember.
I really do have to give kudos to her school, too. We are a little tiny town with a little tiny school (luckily right next to IU, so the liberal affects us all). Last year she caused quite a ruckus when she showed up to Day of Silence with duct tape on her mouth. They called a quick meeting and supported her all the way. Now with this, the principal called a meeting with her teachers and encouraged them to work with her and do their best. They’re doing a bang-up job, probably better than I am. I’m very impressed and touched. Somewhere there’s a thread about DoS about their response; it was pretty sweet.
This is a fascinating discussion, and papergirl bless your heart for trying!
A trans friend of mine complained that they had to fill out some little form to get a rebate on some electronic product and it had a space for sex. My friend asked, “what do my genitals have to do with consumer electronics?” (and I posted elsewhere about this point and people pointed out the answer is “marketing”, which in my book just made everything worse.)
I really dislike all the places that sex or gender gets included. It’s really hard to root out all the places I’m given an opportunity to add sexist details to the picture in my head of whomever we’re discussing. And I do, we all do.
Imagine if we invented new pronouns that were based on race. Or on wealth, or religion. First there would be a huge outrage that we would contemplate such a thing, and then the injustices and microinequities would start to creep in. Except for the fact that we grew up with it, gendered pronouns are absolutely every bit as obnoxious and even abhorrent.
“Ms” was once a big deal. What was wrong with “Mrs” and “Miss”? Why do you people have some deep seated problem with being married or single? What are you, one of those women’s libbers? Is this because you hate men? It was even used to name a magazine, as a sort of an in-your-face provocative move. And it sounds so completely wrong, it will just never fly! But fast forward a generation or so, and now nobody even raises an eyebrow. I’m glad people pushed it then, so that now, when half of humans get introduced, there’s no parenthetic message about whether they are free to be had versus taken.
For what it’s worth, Wikipedia has a decent article about “singular they”.
If you like, please tell “Elle” that some stranger on the internet thanks them for helping the world make progress, whatever else is going on. And also for “good attitude, sweet nature, mature for her age, a devoted and fearless social justice warrior, and almost scary smart”. We need more of all these things!
I’m glad you mentioned the “Ms” thing. I’ve thought of that often, when I (or others) insist that “they” is never going to fly, or that it’s unreasonable. I used Ms and never really encountered problems with it, but someone else fought that battle before I came along to benefit from it.
It’s a good example of how our language does evolve in spite of us old fogies.
Wait, as in “Indiana University”? that’s where I went to school. Are you in, like, Ellettsville, Indiana, or something? I’d be happy to know that place is shaping up.
Papergirl: did you really have a route when you were a kid? I did, from age eleven, to age 13 (jr. high school). It was so cool. I made about $70 a month in 1970s money, which was a lot of money for a middle schooler to have. And it was so cool being the neighborhood paper carrier when I was that age.
Yep, we live in Ellettsville! I tend to report I’m from Bloomington because that’s my mindset, but since Bloomington is moving ever closer one day I expect I’ll be correct. I’m not sure the town itself is much changed, but the school has been pretty amazing.
And while I didn’t deliver papers as a kid, I’ve been doing it as an adult for…oh, 12 years now. It’s an awesome job.
Papergirl, thank you for starting this thread. My partners’ progeny who I only met as an adult is transgendered. “Kent” came to live with us two years ago, and appeared to be a somewhat depressed, withdrawn girl with issues. The situation did not go well and it ended rather dramatically, and my “stepchild” returned to Ontario. After no contact, he messaged his father this summer, asked to be identified as male, use the name Kent, and pronouns he/him etc. Although he still is living across the country I see a happy young man in place of the miserable girl I met.
At first, I had my doubts, but the thing is-it doesn’t matter if I totally buy into his status as transgendered or not. He is an adult and my policy is to call adults by their preferred name and gender. Then, I read Una Persson’s thread and came to understand transgendered issues a bit better. Certain things make more sense to me now. But it’s a learning curve, and sometimes I say “Montanna” instead of Kent.
I agree with some of the posters that things seem more gender divided than when I grew up. I was a kid in the 1970s and a teen in the 1980s. My class pictures rarely had girls in pink. After about grade three none of us wore dresses unless it was a special occasion. Being called a “girly girl” was something that was tough to live down. I wore sweatshirts and denim and boys shoes because they fit better. I hated pink. (now i like it… it looks good on me, and that pink stripe it keeps my son and husband from wearing my socks) I wasn’t really a Tomboy, but I have always had male and female friends. Somewhere around age 12 things shifted and it became ok and then mandatory to become more feminine in dress and style.
I used to have the idea that transgenderism stemmed from rejection of societal gender stereotypes. Like a girl who wants to climb mountains and be an engineer would reject her feminine side, as a man who wants to nurture, stay home and bake cookies and raise children may feel the need to “become a woman”. Now, the more I read and learn I feel it is different than that.
I will never understand what it feels like to think your body is that of the opposite sex. I love being a mom, a caregiver, a nurturer, who also puts on hip waders and cleans gutters and pressure washed a deck. I wonder, knowing the instability of Kent’s upbringing if some of it is brought about by environmental things. But like I said, the most important thing is he is back in our lives and appears happy.
This can’t be emphasized enough. You might feel like you’re floundering but your love for your kid will get you both through this. To hear your child has both the support of you AND the school administration is just… happy all over.
I have a lot of trans friends (mostly on Facebook, colleagues through school & social justice networks in Philadelphia.) I’m still trying to learn. It’s a whole new world. The LGB part came to me automatically because I grew up with a ton of gay friends, but the trans thing has been a steeper learning curve, especially because I am cisgender as all get-out. I am a woman in a female’s body and there is so much we cisgender folks take for granted because of that deceptively simple fact.
I noticed nobody’s thrown out what seem to me to be the most common gender-neutral pronouns -
Look, even with friends, it takes some getting used to the new pronouns thing. I have an amazing friend that goes by these gender-neutral pronouns. Ze is a rugby-playing ‘‘lumberjack’’ burlesque performer dynamo social justice warrior socialite. When I first met zir, my friend appeared to me very male, so I got used to referring to zir as ‘‘he.’’ I’ve never really met the burlesque performer or feminine side of my friend. I still slip up. With your own kid I imagine that transition might be 100x more weird. But it can’t possibly be as weird for me to use a gender-neutral pronoun to describe my friend as it is to have people constantly trying to shove my friend into restrictive gender boxes that cramp zir style.
So, there you have it, an attempt at a demonstration of gender neutral pronouns, and now I will sit in quiet awe of your amazing parenting skills.
You guys are too nice. I’m trying, and at the end of the day I love my kids beyond all else, but I sure don’t feel awesome sometimes. Being a single parent can be tough–I certainly wouldn’t want to go through this while trying to handle being married to their father (what a night THAT would be), but it’s still very isolating sometimes when you take these types of issues and combine them with the financial stresses and all the other ingredients that go along with being a single mom.
It’s a true gift to hear from parents who have been through or are going through the same thing. I can’t tell you how helpful it is to know I’m not alone in this!
