Survivor 5/8: "If It Smells Like A Rat, Give It Cheese"

[EllisDee]

@Polerius

I didn’t watch that season. Do you mind recapping how that alliance formed, and how successful it was?

I don’t remember clearly enough. I know they were obnoxiously in that he-man-women-haters-club mode. I’m pretty sure a very manly woman was part of the group.

Even with this season, all-women alliances are only batting .500. The first time, a lone man managed to hang on to the end and win it all.

As for the all-black alliance, they did that too. It was Cirie’s first season, and the all-black team didn’t fare well. IIRC, they were a terrible tribe, with ugly accusations of laziness and whatnot to feed the stereotypes. That was also Ozzie and Parvati’s first season; he was on the Latino tribe and she the caucasion tribe. The Latino tribe got uglier than the blacks, deliberately (and obviously) tanking a mission in order to vote out an unpopular (and maybe lazy) player.

Once the merge happened, the racial alliances fell apart for the latinos and blacks, who never really got along in the first place. The whites and asians held together better, but the whites got beat down by everyone else. It was not surprising that an asian (Yul) won it all.

I would argue your premise that “One thing we have learned is that successful strategies from one season are copied in later seasons.” This doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. First off, the all-women’s alliance was a proven loser until this season. And second, if that were really the case then the favorites would have stuck together after the merge and picked off every fan first. Parvati probably had bad memories from her first season of being too insulated in a small alliance, which I’m sure played a part in her striking up the all girls alliance.

As for why I think this was a necessary milestone, I don’t think the women have done too well in the game in general. The iconic Survivor guys are remembered for acts of (possibly stupid) honor, like the classic Rudi move in the first season, Erik trying to earn honor this past episode, Dolphin Boy trying to do the same thing as Erik, etc… I’ll concede Dreamz screwed over Yau Man, but I think that is mostly remembered as Yau trying to do the honorable thing.

Conversely, the iconic Survivor women seem to have a taint to them. Sue Hawk’s infamous speech, Amber riding Rob’s coattails to the million, etc… I’ll give you that chick who ended up alone on the beach; she was aces. But predominately, I think the guys have come off better.

In a game where the social aspect is so important, one would think that women would have a clear edge over men, but it never seemed to materialize. I like that it finally materialized, though it took this group of women two seasons to get it right.

[Polerius]

@Ellis Dee

I don’t remember clearly enough. I know they were obnoxiously in that he-man-women-haters-club mode.

I guess the all-male alliance was not that palatable to you, after all.

Because, for this season, I think the women’s alliance is a lot in the mwa-ha-ha-we-women-manipulate-men-and-eat-them-alive-live-like-black-widows mode (especially, but not only, Natalie)

They may not come across to you like that, but maybe if I had seen the season with Shane, his all-male alliance might not have come across to me as he-man-women-haters-club

As for the all-black alliance, they did that too. It was Cirie’s first season, and the all-black team didn’t fare well. IIRC, they were a terrible tribe, with ugly accusations of laziness and whatnot to feed the stereotypes. That was also Ozzie and Parvati’s first season; he was on the Latino tribe and she the caucasion tribe. The Latino tribe got uglier than the blacks, deliberately (and obviously) tanking a mission in order to vote out an unpopular (and maybe lazy) player.

Once the merge happened, the racial alliances fell apart for the latinos and blacks, who never really got along in the first place. The whites and asians held together better, but the whites got beat down by everyone else.

So how enjoyable was this to watch? Do we really want people to divide into racial groups?

If not, why should we be OK when people divide along gender lines?

As for why I think this was a necessary milestone, I don’t think the women have done too well in the game in general. The iconic Survivor guys are remembered for acts of (possibly stupid) honor, like the classic Rudi move in the first season, Erik trying to earn honor this past episode, Dolphin Boy trying to do the same thing as Erik, etc… I’ll concede Dreamz screwed over Yau Man, but I think that is mostly remembered as Yau trying to do the honorable thing.

Conversely, the iconic Survivor women seem to have a taint to them. Sue Hawk’s infamous speech, Amber riding Rob’s coattails to the million, etc… I’ll give you that chick who ended up alone on the beach; she was aces. But predominately, I think the guys have come off better.

Wait, so because guys have come off better by doing some perceived acts of honor, and the women have not, then it becomes important for the women to form an all-female alliance and vote all the men off?

How does this make sense?

If, as you believe, the iconic guys have left an “honorable” legacy, shouldn’t it be a necessary milestone for the first woman to do some major honorable act?

In a game where the social aspect is so important, one would think that women would have a clear edge over men, but it never seemed to materialize. I like that it finally materialized, though it took this group of women two seasons to get it right.

I would have preferred if any edge that women have due to the “social aspect” of Survivor manifested itself in other ways, leading to more female winners, for example, rather than resulting in the women just deciding to form an exclusive gender-based alliance.

[EllisDee]

@Polerius

I guess the all-male alliance was not that palatable to you, after

Because, for this season, I think the women’s alliance is a lot in the mwa-ha-ha-we-women-manipulate-men-and-eat-them-alive-live-like-black-widows mode (especially, but not only, Natalie)

They both struck me the same way. I disagreed that a men’s alliance would somehow come off worse just by virtue of them being men instead of women.

The racially segregated season, apart from the four-tribe structure, was basically the same as any other season: it didn’t get interesting until the merge, when the initial alliances broke down and new ones formed. That is the compelling part of Survivor alliances, at least IMO.

I don’t have any problem with any logic behind alliances, though it’s pretty clear you do. I can’t fathom any distinction between a gender-based or race-based alliance and, say, a fans-vs-favorites alliance. All alliance groupings are meaningless by virtue of being arbitrary.

And I think you misunderstood my overarching point. I have been wanting the women to do better in Survivor for a while now, and now they are. I explained why I think they haven’t been coming off very well: their natural strengths never manifested. It would be like if in the history of Survivor, the men struggled at the physical challenges. It was just odd that the women never seemed able to play to their strengths.

If one of the key strengths of women is the ability to manipulate men – and forgive me for being jaded but I think it’s a big one – then this season they’ve finally done so in impressive fashion. Every bit as impressive as Ozzy, Jason, Terry the fighter pilot or Tom the Fireman were in physical challenges.

ETA: And it’s not just these masters at the end. Even early on, the big hulking fan was played like a fiddle by that one chick.

[squeegee]

@Polerius

So how enjoyable was this to watch? Do we really want people to divide into racial groups?

Didn’t bother me at the time; I thought it was fairly amusing to see the dynamics of the different groups. I don’t think those dynamics had anything to do with race, just the luck of the draw on what kinds of personalities ended up together. It was also amusing to see some of them make stupid mistakes (like throwing a challenge); isn’t it always? Watching people act stupid is a time honored Survivor tradition.

If, as you believe, the iconic guys have left an “honorable” legacy

I’d describe it more as the men doing stupid things for what they thought of as honorable reasons (but were mostly stupid reasons).

[EllisDee]

@squeegee

I’d describe it more as the men doing stupid things for what they thought of as honorable reasons (but were mostly stupid reasons).

Exactly. It’s like trusting someone to not bluff in poker.

[squeegee]

@Ellis Dee

ETA: And it’s not just these masters at the end. Even early on, the big hulking fan was played like a fiddle by that one chick.

That was Joel; I think he was carted away by Tracy, the ambulatory nipple lady.

[squeegee]

By the way, any division of tribes that gave us Billy’s declaration of undying love to Candice on Cook Islands is okay by me.

[Polerius]

@Ellis Dee

I don’t have any problem with any logic behind alliances, though it’s pretty clear you do. I can’t fathom any distinction between a gender-based or race-based alliance and, say, a fans-vs-favorites alliance.

Given the history of this country, you don’t think an all-white alliance voting off the black members one by one would raise any eyebrows?

Hardly the same as a fans-vs-favorites split.

And I think you misunderstood my overarching point. I have been wanting the women to do better in Survivor for a while now, and now they are.

I think that you are mistaken about how well women have done in Survivor.

If you take a look at the sole Survivors from the past, 7 have been women and 9 have been men. And now that the new one will surely be a woman, we will have 8 women and 9 men. That’s as close to a statistical tie as you can get with this small sample size.

Or, for it to properly reflect women’s advantages, were you expecting it to be something like 14 women and 3 men sole Survivors?

If one of the key strengths of women is the ability to manipulate men – and forgive me for being jaded but I think it’s a big one

Can you elaborate on this? Usually, it’s men who complain that women are manipulative. To have women (you and the ladies on the show) nonchalantly proclaim that they are great at manipulating men is interesting.

BTW, this whole thing interests me because it is related to one of my pet theories:
In the old days, men had physical power over women, so women, over the centuries, developed “psychological tools” (behavioral patterns that influence the actions of males) to be able to get what they want. So, there was a sort of balance of power.

In modern society, men are not allowed to use their physical power on women (society frowns on men beating their wives to impose their will), but women are allowed to use their “psychological tools”. So there is now an imbalance of power in modern couples.

My opinion is that men, in the coming centuries, will have to develop “psychological tools” of their own in order to restore the balance of power.

[Polerius]

BTW, I wish they got more contestants like Penner and Richard Hatch, instead of simpletons like Eric and Jason.

The former were strategizers and definitely not easily manipulated by women.

As I mentioned in a previous post, watching the women with Eric, it was like watching a cat play with a puny one-legged mouse. It would be a bit more interesting if the mouse had four legs and was on steroids.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Polerius

BTW, I wish they got more contestants like Penner and Richard Hatch,

And Lex. The paranoia was fun.

[Ruffian]

Dude, Lex ruled!

Meanwhile, how can* Survivor: Outback* be consider boring?? Two words: fire nap. And the hate for Jeri was fun, too.

I think it helped Richard Hatch that he was gay…how manipulated can he be by a pretty girl?

There’s an idea for next season: all gay men and pretty girls. I’d love to see the Parvarti types used to batting their eyelashes and getting what they way dealing with folks immune to their powers.

Man, she sucks. I really can’t stand Those types of girls, or at least the way they are presented.

Still haven’t made up my mind as to whether I’m watching the finale tomorrow. It isn’t that I’m pissed and want to make some statement that I’m Not Watching…I just don’t particularly care who wins. Kinda hope it’s Cirie, but mostly I don’t care.

The reunion show ought to be interesting, though.

[Saint_Cad]

@Eureka

Stupid move. Especially since Jason came thisclose to be voted off despite a promise from EVERYBODY that if he dropped out of an earlier challenge and shared food that he’d be kept around.

I was beginning to think that I was the only one who remembered that. He gives up the challenge and still gets voted on. A week or two later he’s trusting them again. I hate Cirie more every week - and the more I hate her the more I think she deserves to win.

[Astroboy14]

@Ruffian

Still haven’t made up my mind as to whether I’m watching the finale tomorrow.

Wait, what? :eek:

I had no idea the finale was tonight! Thank you; I would have missed it…

[DrDeth]

@Eureka

I couldn’t believe they hid another Immunity Idol. I assumed that once one was successfully used, there would be no more hidden idols. Therefore, I was incredibly frustrated by all the strategizing about who would be sent to Exile Island, up until the point where Jeff announced that there was in fact a new idol hidden.

They shoots lots of hours*. If they show multiple scenes of the players talking about “X”, it’s going to come in to play to at least a minor extent. So, I knew Eric would at least make a show of considering handing over the Immunity necklace. But he really did… :eek:

*During the earlier shows of the season, someone who gets a lot of camera time will be leaving. This usually means you can narrow it down to 2-4 people who could be voted off.

[Lamar_Mundane]

I wonder if Eric is going to play the “nice guy” card in the wrapup show tonight?

“I was so kind and helpful to the women and they tricked me and dumped on me! Wah!”

No, you are a loser who thought that telling every woman what they wanted to hear was going to benefit you. They were on to your act from day one and you just confirmed what a spineless naive weasel you really are.

[JSexton]

Cirie’s plan was even better than you think. By sending Natalie on a fool’s errand to talk Erik out of his immunity necklace, she set Nat up to be voted out with no fuss, as Nat failed to save her own skin, thus reducing Nat’s bitterness in the final vote. Utterly brilliant, as it had absolutely no downside for Cirie.

[gonzoron]

@Ellis Dee

As for the all-black alliance, they did that too. It was Cirie’s first season, and the all-black team didn’t fare well. IIRC, they were a terrible tribe, with ugly accusations of laziness and whatnot to feed the stereotypes.

Not quite correct. Cirie was on the previous season, on the “older women” tribe when they split them by age and gender for all of like 3 days before reshuffling.