Read this book review http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0212.mencimer.html and saw a few points sure to spark some debate:
and
and this:
I suggest all the SUV haters go have a look
Navin R. Johnson checking in here. I’ve driven pickup trucks, Explorers and currently in an Expedition (2003, redesigned for my safety).
I would like to see some of the research cites, particularly around the accident and death statistics. SUV’s have been around long enough now I wouldn’t be surprised if they are being driven all over the country as second-hand vehicles by teens/young 20’s and inexperienced drivers who drive too fast, road rage, etc., and that the increase in accidents/deaths may be attributed to inexperienced drivers and not arrogant baby boomers.
I live in an affluent suburb, one mile from the high school, and a huge number of the kids drive Explorers, Jeep Cherokees, Jimmy’s and even larger SUVs. The rest of them drive sporty (sometimes fast/furious) custom sports cars or convertibles. They all seem to have cell phones and drive around with loads of friends (even though that’s illegal just after they get their license). Maybe the fault is with the cell phones and not the SUVs?
Anyhoo, I’d be interested to find out what the median age is of SUV drivers in accidents/deaths compared to SUV drivers in general.
The argument against SUVs seems in ways similar to arguments against guns, in that they are inherently dangerous. Maybe they are only dangerous in the wrong hands.
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?
Canyonero! Canyonero!
</simpsons quote>
"Even a small bump in the road is enough to flip an SUV traveling at high speed. "
If this statement is any indication of the quaility of this ‘research’ we can pretty much ignore the whole thing.:rolleyes:
Other statements from the review. -
“Have you ever wondered why sport utility vehicle drivers seem like such assholes?”
“Unlike any other vehicle before it, the SUV is the car of choice for the nation’s most self-centered people;”
“and the bigger the SUV, the more of a jerk its driver is likely to be.”
Anyone see any bias here?
I think the author is undoubtedly biased, but that doesn’t make the market research info or the safety statistics invalid.
davidw, what would you like to debate?
I have it on good authority that men who drive fancy cars are insecure about their penis size. :rolleyes:
Marc
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That’s a bit of a surprise to me. I would have thought that SUV drivers would be over-confident, on average.
davidw - The author of the book review seems biased as does the author of the book.
The market research mentioned (focus groups) could easily be invalid, either by the way they were conducted (leading/biased questions from the FG facilitator) or the conclusions drawn by the researchers and/or the author himself (as a professional marketer/ researcher, I believe my expert position on this issue is valid).
The “statistics” could prove the author’s point or may refute it, depending on what he analyzed or what measures he included. Since other reviews of his book seemed to indicate that his work was biased (no cites - just from memory when this was out a couple months ago) it is entirely possible that he only included the “statistics” that favored his position.
As I requested in my original reply, what other factors may be causing the increases in accidents/deaths?
I thought that’s what they said about us gun owners.
Hey! I know the author of that piece, Stephanie Mencimer. Only in terms of chatting at parties, though. She seems nice. Anyway, while the reports seem biased, the retorts are, too. But the kill ratio stats seem the most telling to me, and they make sense. So one can quibble over the methods in order to justify their own vehicle choice, but I would surmise that SUVs (and their drivers)are deadlier than most other vehicles. Cite? Go find me something that proves SUVs are safer…
This cracks me up. ‘SUVs’ have been around since before I was born. They were called Blazers and Broncos and they were twice as big & heavy as these current so-called ‘enormous’ vehicles. And nobody gave two shits about them.
Rollover accidents in SUVs are caused by one thing, driver error. If you are so clueless that you don’t develop a ‘feel’ for how your vehicle handles and you turn too fast and flip over, its your own damn fault. Not only should you not be driving an SUV you shouldn’t be driving at all! People who take driving totally for granted are the danger, not their vehicles!
And big equals safe. Period. Crumple-zones and airbags and 5MPH bumpers are all good ideas and they all add to safety. But they are still not as safe as a real frame & chassis. And this has been known since unibody car construction was first introduced in the late 70s. Cars were (and are) made this way because its less expensive to build them and because it makes them a lot lighter so they get better gas mileage. Cars like Volvos & Mercedes, although small, are safer because they aren’t made with cheaper unibody construction but with steel frame rails.
Ralph Nader himself pointed all this out in his landmark book about the first unibody vehicle, the Chevy Corvair.
Cite, Hail Ants?
What you say is right up to a point IMHO. Big and very strong is safe in medium to low speed crashes, particularly when what the SUV hits is smaller and lighter and gives way. But in high speed crashes, particularly with solid objects like trees and the ground, something has to give. And if that something is not your heavy, super rigid truck, it is you.
And you totally discount the rollover point, which is a very high cause of deaths in highway accidents, and in respect of which SUV’s have a very bad record. You merely say “driver error”, and I make two points in response. Firstly, so what? Are you saying that if the drivers were more skilled they wouldn’t have died, so those deaths don’t count? Not everyone is a highly skilled driver, does that mean that they deserve to die?
Secondly, what if you are driving an SUV and you are confronted with a problem caused by someone or something else. Cold comfort that the accident wasn’t your fault, as you slam into an obstruction or rollover and get crushed because your hulking SUV is unable to brake or swerve as a sedan would.
Don’t get me wrong, I drive a small SUV myself, but I don’t kid myself that this doesn’t involve certain risks, to myself and to others (the latter being of particular concern).
You make several good points.
Yes, but if you wear your seatbelt an SUV is still going to be more survivable than an econo-box.
Well, no and yes. It isn’t being inexcusably reckless like driving shit-face drunk. But at the same time just because we all do it everyday doesn’t mean we should take driving for granted. We may be sitting in a comfy, air-conditioned, sound proof, wind proof, stereo equipped cocoon but you shouldn’t have to be reminded that we are literally seconds away from dismemberment and/or death if we make the wrong decision or don’t stay aware of our situation.
And we most definitely should not expect government regulations to just take care of all of this for us. I mean, exploding Pintos are one thing. That’s clearly a defective product not functioning as any reasonable person would expect.
But isn’t it obvious that an SUV is not going to handle like a station wagon?
So I guess that my dad was lying when he told me he bought his 4 Runner so it will be easier to get around in the snow and for job-related off roading.
Whoever wrote that should be shot.
FWIW, I learned to drive in an SUV (Cherokee) (yes, I’m a youngun), had two honda sedans, then bought my own Jeep (2000 Wrangler)
My Jeep feels more stable when cornering than the Accord or
Civic ever did (2001 Civic LX & 1992 Accord LX). When pushed in a curve, the sloppy front wheel drive design of the Hondas tended to understeer, pushing me toward the outside of the curve with a defiant whine of the tires. No such noise from the Wrangler… In fact, I’m much more confident on roads such as the Pac Coast Hwy near Big Sur in the Jeep. It’s easier to see the road ahead.
Purely IMHO, but I find that in my Wrangler, I am able to see dangerous traffic situations from a greater distance, as I’m not inches away from the ground. It didn’t matter much back in Tallahassee, but on Cali freeways, every second of early warning counts. Also, I find that I’m not blinded by the headlights of semi’s and work trucks, which in the civic always shined in your face. The Jeep places me conveniently above the glare of their low beams.
I’m not saying that the Jeep would be safer in an accident. In a frontal collision, the sheer size of the engine compartment should protect me (the engine only fills the back half of the compartment) along with the heavy duty ladder frame). From the sides, I’m wormfood… I’ve never been in a vehicle before this one that warned you not to expect the doors to protect you in a wreck. They are light, hollow (and removable) sheetmetal.
Also FWIW, my cousin drove a 1997 Ford Ranger (which is built on an almost identical chassis as a contemporary Explorer) into the side of a 1998 Cherokee at 55 MPH. Neither car had any significant passenger compartment damage… In fact, both drivers got out and started fighting about who messed up who’s truck.
God I miss the south!
Will any SUV defenders please discuss the kill rate?
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Maybe, maybe not. A safely designed econobox with good crumple zones will protect you, through destroying itself.
Seatbelts don’t save you from everything. If you are in a rigid box and hit a tree at high speed and the box doesn’t give but stays rigid, yes OK you won’t be crushed. You will instead be splattered against your own seatbelt or cabin interior
Yes but all this just misses the point. You can be a crap driver in an SUV, and you can be a crap driver in a sedan that handles and brakes well. One will forgive your mistakes, one won’t. The one that won’t is, by any reasonable measure, more dangerous. Period.
quote:
I have it on good authority that men who drive fancy cars are insecure about their penis size.
“I thought that’s what they said about us gun owners.”
…
uh-oh. looks like i need to buy a gun
Yes, Jehovah, I will debate the kill rate. But, are you talking about the kill rate in the SUV (rollovers) or from the SUV impact (deaths in the other vehicle)?
In either case, I would guess that some/many/most of the deaths are because inexperienced/overconfident (read: young) drivers in the SUVs are at fault or contributed to the death (theirs or the other guy). If you don’t know what you are doing driving a bigger, heavier, higher center of gravity vehicle, you are dangerous, not the SUV.
If you are drunk, talking on a cell phone, putting on makeup, transporting 7 friends, speeding, road raging, or tailgating in snowy conditions, it is the driver’s fault, not the truck’s fault.
Even if a mature, experienced driver overloads his standard sized SUV (5 people and luggage or heavy cargo) then he may not realize the SUV won’t handle as well, won’t brake as well and so on. But is that the truck’s fault or his?
But if someone in a Honda pulls out in front of someone in a Suburban on a highway and gets killed, how is that the fault of the SUV or the it’s driver?
I opted to buy the larger SUV, the Expedition, for various reasons, one of which was that it is safely rated to carry about 1,600 lbs of cargo (the Explorer, by comparison, should carry only about 700 lbs). If you were to travel with four adults and luggage, you possibly shouldn’t do it in a standard sized SUV.
I like to be able to carry people and stuff safely, I like to be up high where I can see traffic patterns and be better able to anticipate danger and I like having 4WD when it gets snowy. I also like knowing that I (and especially my child and wife) am relatively safer if we are hit by anything else, from a car to a dumptruck, in a large, heavy vehicle with front airbags and rear passenger side airbags. I don’t like my gas mileage and that I have to squeeze into my garage, but everything’s a trade-off.
Because I drive a bigger truck that can inflict pain in an accident, I’m extra cautious not to tailgate, run redlights, speed, etc. I know I cannot stop as quickly as smaller vehicles, but since I pay attention to what I’m doing and what’s going on around me I’m not endangering anyone. My truck is safe because I’m safe. If someone pulls out in front of me and gets himself killed, how is that my or my SUV’s fault?
As for kill rates, I’ve mentioned in each post that it would be very interesting to know the age of the SUV drivers in the fatal accidents in the statistics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are younger than the SUV driving population in general and also less experienced in handling a larger vehicle. If that is the case, then the debate shouldn’t be so much about the danger of SUVs but that parents shouldn’t get their kids SUVs for their 16th birthday because the kids aren’t experienced enough to handle a vehicle that size safely.