Res ipsa loquitor.
Thanks for the advice samarm, you’re probably right. I should probably quit before I get my own brand new pit thread.
Up near the top of my penis, there’s a big gorilla holding a small, blonde woman and swatting airplanes.
But seriously, I’m just appalled by the unpredictably huge percentage of women I’ve met whose virginity was lost in an encounter that was not of their choosing.
It’s theirs. If they want to give it away to the first schmuck they see, fine. If they wanna keep it locked up for the rest of their lives, so be it. Somewhere in between? Makes sense to me.
But for chrissakes, just don’t take it from them.
MY posts might usually sound somewhat sexist or at least a little perverted, but I really mean this one. Too many women I know were raped or otherwise coerced. **Too many. **
…and for once, my sig line is totally appropriate!
I don’t know who said anything about “taking It” from them. I would certainly agree that it is her absolute right to keep it until she’s a hundered and five if she wants to. I hate rape. I think rapists should get life in prison for the first offense, including date rapists. I would never, ever suggest that anyone has a right to force or coerce another person to have sex, no matter what else I’ve said in this thread.
Actually, I’m enjoying Diogenes’ posts. Frankly, there IS a sense that if you criticize the notion of virginity, you’re doing something awful. Adn Diogenes’ point about the unnaturalness of virginity makes perfect sense to me.
I don’t respect virginity myself. Let me clarify: I respect you RIGHT to be a virgin, but I don’t respect your VIRGINITY.
It’s just the same as religion. I respect the right I and other Americans have to freedom of religion. But that does’t mean I have to respect every dog-brained bit of flapdoodle that ever oozed out of some stupid-ass religious leader’s lips. You wanna believe the Earth was created in seven days by a hairy thunderer, go to it, it’s your right. But I still think you’ve got chowder for brains.
With virginity, you wanna save yourself sexually until you get married, go ahead. I still think it’s dumb not to know if you’re gonna zig where the person zags sexually that you are planning to have as your sex partner for life. But hey, there’s always divorce, right?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by //\etalhea|) *
**
But for chrissakes, just don’t take it from them.
**
Bit of a hijack here, if you ask me.
Your point would be more germane if this were a thread about rape, or if anyone here had advocated forcefully taking women’s virginity from them.
You have got to be kidding about this. Virginity has been mocked in popular culture for decades. Sleep with as many people as you want, but don’t try to claim you’re part of the avant garde when you do it.
Next time I guess I’ll have to put the word usually in bold so you’ll be able to see it. You DO know what the word means? If YOU happened to be unusually mature at the age of whatever - lets say 14 - bully for you. But that does NOT make your experience typical, any more than MY experience was typical.
If you had bothered to read my entire post instead of flying off the handle you’d realize that the elements I suggested for a women to have a good first time were all present during YOURS - you exercised considerable control, you knew what you wanted, and you trusted the person you were with. You even had your head screwed on straight about this circumstance not being a meeting of “soulmates” or whatever the fashionable term is now.
Right - so WHAT are we disagreeing about? I never advocated waiting until marriage, all I said was that I thought in general that women were better off waiting a little longer than the norm these days.
As I said - if YOU happened to have your shit together enough to pull this off and have a good time at whatever tender young age you did, that’s just fine - for you. But I’ve known far too many women whose first time was under a stairway or in a back bedroom, pressured by a boyfriend, terrified the two of them are going to get caught by either his or her parents. That’s NOT a good first time, regardless of your age.
I know you may find this hard to believe, but this ancient crone was once a teen ager, too, and despite the early-onset Alzheimer’s I do have some recollection of that period of my life.
I’d say the average teenager THINKS he or she is capable of making decisions about his or her life - but a lot of them fuck it up. You may not want to hear it, but experience DOES count in life.
The only way to know if you can really handle being out on your own is to go and do it, Not everyone succeeds on the first attempt. If you managed to achieve independence early skippy for you. As you pointed out, a lot of adults have fucked up lives and make shit decisions. So why should I presume the average teenager is more capable of these decisions than someone 30, 40, 50 or more years old?
I’m willing to concede that SOME 16 year old girls can truly be described as “young women” with the knowledge and maturity to take care of themselves and make their own decisions. If you were one of them, congratulations. No 12 year old, however, is that level of mature. She’s heading there, but she hasn’t arrived yet. That’s why we have the legal concept of “statutory rape”. Sure, her body might be ready and want it, but she isn’t mentally mature enough
One of the worst aspects of the Cult of Virginity[sub]TM[/sub] is that one mistake at 12 can screw the entire rest of a girl’s life. Rather like the old attitude that if a girl got pregnant in high school her life was over, she had to drop out of school and never go back, and get married to the father (if known) whether they were a match or not. That’s horseshit - as soon as that girl has a baby she needs an educated even more. Getting married just because you’re pregnant is a shitty excuse.
Likewise, one sexual experience at a young age does not make a girl a whore. Being other than virgin isn’t the end of the world. Having a bad first time isn’t the end of the world. Even IF you have a great first time, that doesn’t mean time number two or three isn’t going to be awful. That’s still not the end of the world. If it’s not fun you’re not doing it right - in which case, figure out what went wrong and don’t do it again. In some cases, that might mean a girl has to realize that maybe it was too soon and she should wait some months or years before having sex again.
If a man is so insecure that he can’t handle the thought that another man touched the woman in the past maybe he’s not got his head screwed on properly. She’s not “his” wife in the sense that “his” car and “his” shirt belong to him. As an ealier poster put it - if SHE decides to make a gift of her virginity to her husband because it’s important to HER that’s beautiful. If she has no choice and her virginity is held up as proof of purity and being qualified to marry - that’s just fucking sick.
Yes, I realize that’s the norm in other cultures. Well, I don’t live in those cultures. I live in MY culture where (supposedly) a woman’s body belongs to her and no one else and SHE decides what happens to it, not her father, husband, boyfriend, or anyone else.
Yes. That’s part of the problem. A kiss can be on the level of a perfunctory handshake, or it could extremely arousing. Holding hands could just mean you don’t want to be separated in a crowd, or it can be a highly charged part of a religious ceremony marking a marriage union. The meaning of an action is dependent on context.
Personally, I think those who think anything and everything short of actual intercoure - meaning penis in a vagina - doesn’t “qualify” as sex are hypocrites. By that standard, there are a hell of a lot of sexually active (by my standards) virgin homosexuals. Indeed, under that definition “homosexual sex” is an oxymoron.
I think we understand each other there - there are no absoulutes.
And I agree with your statement 100%. Unfortunately, OTHER people do not.
I think that perhaps I didn’t express my point clearly enough - I did NOT say the risks were equal - they aren’t. Just that the risks are never zero.
It is possible for a person to acquire “STD’s” such as herpes, HIV, and various yeast infections years befire their first sexual experience. Fortunately, this is extremely rare. But my point was NOT that “there are risks, don’t worry, just screw” but that being a virgin was no more a gaurantee of perfect health than birth controls pills are a gaurantee you aren’t pregnant. You can get preganant on the pill, and a virgin may have an STD. That doesn’t mean birth controls pills don’t work, or that virginity is worthless in disease prevention.
Here’s the deal from my viewpoint: I wouldn’t hand the keys to my car to just anyone - so why the hell would I lend my body out? And that’s an argument that works for both the boys and the girls and doesn’t bring religious and moral values into it (not that those aren’t important, of course). Value your body at least as much as your most valuable material object. If you don’t trust that person at least enough to hand them your car keys, don’t have sex with that person.
“Every Dog-Brained bit of Flapdoodle that ever Oozed Out of Some Stupid-Ass Religious Leader’s Lips” Tell me you don’t have that one copyrighted! I LOVE IT! Can I use it???
And this coming from a Committed Christian such as me, one who holds an opposing yet similar viewpoint as yourself. I, too am very leery of what I call Christo Fascists and Jesus Cultists, half wits who preen on about “their” religion, WWJD, insipid meaningless “Praise Music”, and yet frankly have no f’ing CLUE what Jesus was really all about. The classic dork who goes into road rage while driving out of his MegaChurch’s parking lot.
But I do have to throw the penalty flag on you for an illegal procedure. Please don’t claim to “respect the right of freedom of religion” and then refer to those of us who beleive in Creation as “chowder heads”
Go in Peace
You’re welcome to the “flapdoodle” phrase.
As for the penalty flag, didn’t ya read the post. I respect people’s RIGHT to be chowder heads about religion, but I still think they’re chowder heads. Is there some part of this you don’t understand?
It’s a thread hijack anyway.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Evil Captor *
**
Maybe it was a bit of a hijack, but I didn’t think so.
My point is that for a lot of women I know, their status as non-virgin is (or was) not changed by choice. Regardless of how they felt about it, it was changed FOR them. So a lot of the people who are making statements about the moral character of women who are non-virgins before marriage should consider that maybe this was the circumstance.
Good GOD, could you be more of a jackass?
:rolleyes:
I speak the truth. Have you ever seen a thirty year old male virgin that wasn’t a total geekwad?
My dad. He married at age 35. It was a different time back then, sure, and he was a good church boy, but he was NOT a “total geekwad”.
A great dad. Always there for us, always a devoted father, more of a real man than many I see today. (He was someone who supported his family, lives up to his responsibilities with good humor, devotion, and love.) He passed away several years ago. I still miss him.
Of course, I suppose that just from the information I’ve given you, you can still deem my dear departed dad as a “total geekwad”. Because after all, he was a virgin at age 30. The fact that I knew him, and he was my dad and I know a helluva lot more than you ever will about him is inconsequential. You, in your infinite wisdom, have decreed it, so it must be so. “Total geekwad” he most certainly must have been. How could I have not seen it before? :rolleyes:
Gee Dio, I don’t know. As a rule I don’t wander around asking people if they’re virgins or not.
I’ve known many a priest who were anything but “total geekwads”?
You sound like a REAL prize. :rolleyes:
Oh wait. That wasn’t this thread. Apparently it’s OK to stereotype in this thread and deem all male virgins of a certain age “total geekwads”. He wrote “don’t be so quick to stereotype” in this thread about drugs.
What makes drug users exempt from stereotyping, but virgins fair game in your eyes? I am all curiosity.
Priests are mostly repressed homosexuals-- at least the ones that aren’t pedophiles. I’d put priests in the gaywad category.
I’m only talking about male virgins, and I’m not stereotyping them, I’m describing them. Virginity is a per se geekwad characteristic
DtC, good grief, man, SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! This thing has gotten way off track and totally out of hand, I’m e-mailing a mod to lock it.