Look, for the record, there’s a simple, easy, foolproof method of telling if a woman has had an orgasm during sex – she will without fail offer to refund your money.
I’m a virgin by choice. No anal, no oral, no heavy petting (or light petting, for that matter). There’s a lady at my church who was first kissed by her husband at the altar. My church’s assistant pastor is a 32 year old virgin (male) who has never gone beyond kissing. I am offended by the fact that you automatically assume that I’m lying.
Well, we seem to agree that sex covers a whole lot more territory than strictly intercourse. That’s a start. Your point here that heavy petting can result in transmission of STD’s or, rarely, pregnancy, is not exactly a brainstorm, however. There are no, none, zero absolutes in life regarding sexual contact and the risks associated with it. I’m not claiming virgins are exempt from the normal risks of interaction with others, nor do I believe you’re claiming that virgins have no lesser risks of pregnancy/STD infection than that of a sexually active person. The exception does in fact prove the rule.
Never in this world would I ever blame a rape victim, an incest victim, or a child of any age for sexual abuse. Kindly stop making obsence accusations. FWIW, as I don’t consider sexual assault of anyone to be “sexual intercourse”, I would hardly wish to define that assault as the end of virginity. A grotesque version of adding insult to injury that would be.
Hmm, such that I would consider this the divining line between virginity and sexual activity? Nope. No more than dancing close together, hugging, cuddling. Sure, there’s no 1-10 scale of sexual behavior versus sexual contact, at least as I see it (YMMV), but, just in case your definition differs; I would consider sexual contact to be physical contact between two persons (let’s just keep it simple) for the purpose of sexual stimulation, ultimately, though not necessarily to the point of orgasm.
Wow. Please supply your source for that bit of info. I’ve never heard anyone suggest that condoms even approach that level of protection. As those promoting teenage abstinence are concerned with the failure rates of protection against pregnancy and disease from every type of birth control, your statement hardly seems logical.
As to your summation that virginity falls short of guaranteeing health, I refer you above.
You’re using the same faulty argument others are. Let’s sum it up:
the most frequent mode of transmission of most STD’s, in general, is sexual contact. BUT, you argue, because one CAN contact an STD in another, less common manner, engaging in behavior with increased risks thereby carries in fact NO greater risk. Okay. Gotcha. So, one risk is just as good as another risk. You do see why this is faulty logic, don’t you?
Your comment is in response to my exasperation regarding the use of terms with varying definitions to define virginity, sexual behavior, sexual contact, etc. Thought I was just pulling it out of my, er, hat?
Take a look at a few things;
Broomstick says above; “…yes, I DO consider oral-genital contact to be sex. So is hand-genital contact.”
Diogenes the Cynic said "I have a brother that’s a born again Christian. He used to brag about waiting until marriage, but he was also getting blow-jobs and eating pussy and he said they didn’t count…" (bolding mine)
So, a clear discrepancy in the definition of terms. So, let’s take a look at the definitions in my 2000 Random House Webster’s College Dictionary:
Virgin: a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
Sex: 8. have sex, to engage in sexual relations, esp. sexual intercourse.
Sexual intercourse: genital contact or coupling between individuals, esp. one involving penetration of the penis into the vagina.
sexually transmitted disease: any disease characteristically transmitted by sexual contact…
sexual relations: 1. sexual intercourse; coitus 2. any sexual activity between individuals
So, we have a variety of definitions, all with shaded meanings. Is penetration the standard definition of virginity? Apparently even the dictionary can’t agree. So, when I rightly argued that allowing the term (virginity) to mean what any person wants it to mean is 1984’s Newspeak in action, I was clearly justified.
True enough. Basically, we all have a “right” to make bad decisions.
However, when anyone thinks that they have the “right” to take on an action that may result in pregnancy, they’d damned well better be capable and ready to handle the consequences of their decision on their own. All on their own. Without the financial support of their parents, or the government. Because if they expect others to help bail them out in such circumstances, these other people will probably feel like they have some say over the dumb decisions.
You might want to explain this to some Catholic priests who have taken vows of celibacy.
I need to figure out if I’m unbelievable or insane.
Man, what a barrel of laughs that church must be. I’ve gotta say, a 32 year old male who has never gone beyond kissing is a fucking loser in my book (either that or in the closet).
Some people live their lives strictly by a religion. I don’t consider him a loser - if he chooses to live his life that way then that is up to him.
Religion is an excuse for dorks not to get laid
Ok, maybe that’s a little harsh, but I think it’s a silly way to live your life. Biblical proscriptions about pre-marital sex didn’t apply to men anyway, so it’s not even a sin.
You just keep digging yourself in deeper, and deeper, aren’t you? Just because you don’t understand why some people do this, it doesn’t mean that those who do are losers.
Okey-dokey. It seems to me that the various things needed to be considered in a topic as broad as sexuality, one is bound to run into such problems. How people view sexuality is not found in a dictionary. Nor should it be. If people clearly state what they feel they mean, then I don’t see any reason to be upset about a shady topic, really.
Yes it does.
Diogenese, shut up. You are hurting the cause.
There are a few different kinds of virgins in this world. Many of my friends are virgins (really!) There are a few of my friends, who simply havn’t found someone they want to be with yet. There are others who are following the path they believe to be safe and moral.
Then there is my friend who comes from a very traditional religious background. She is a virgin because if anyone found out she was having sex, bad things would happen. She would very likely get kicked out of her church, and no longer be a part of the festivals and rituals that make up the religion she believes and the culture she grew up in. She may get disowned from her family. She would not inheret their wealth. She would not be able to see her little cousins or her grandparents. Her name would bring shame whenever it was mentioned. She’d lose her chance at a normal marriage, and a normal life.
That sucks. It’s not cool. It’s not an attitude I want to see take hold in these parts. Progress can be reversed just as easily as it can be made.
So, we’ll put you in the “Western culture favors experience” column then, shall we?
I’m not judging the women even sven, I’m judging the men. It’s completely unnatural for a male to deliberately cut himself off from all sexual activity. I think the vast majority of guys who are “saving it” really have no choice in the matter. Religion just provides a nice cover. Religion also works if the guy is not really into girls. Just because a belief is religiously based doesn’t mean it’s not stupid. The idea that a guy should never have sex unless he’s married is not an idea that I have much respect for. Only a douchebag saves it on purpose.
You know, vegetarianism is a religious ideal for a lot of people too, but people don’t get their panties in a bunch when vegetarianism is belittled or ridiculed. The notion that I’m supposed to have some kind of reverence for virgins is an irritant to me. If you’re a man in your thirties and you’ve never been laid, you’re a loser.
WELL! This is certainly the most entertaining thread I’ve had the joy to read since becoming a Doper.
As for my dick, the FAA requires flashing lights on it at night to warn aircraft.
On a serious note, my own sexual maturation was accomplished via trysts with an older woman, a method common in other cultures, from what I’ve read. She had the decency to guide me and administer an education that no Health Class or Premarital Church session could accomplish. I’ve also known some women who stayed virgins until they were married, and were disgusted afterward when they learned how dismally their partners performed. While I’m sure some couples who are both virgins at marriage are happy to learn and become successful, satisfying lovers together, I’m betting they are in the minority.
When my daughter gets a little older, and we address the old Birds and Bees topic, I’ll advise her to practice safe sex before anything else, and also to learn her own body, what rings her bell, and make sure before saying I do, that she’ll be truly happy with the guy, in and out of bed.
Here’s to the life of Elizabeth Ayers,
for her life held no terrors.
A virgin she lived, and a virgin she died,
no runs, no hits, no errors.
Ahem!
Diogenes, my friend, you are painting with a very large brush.
And why might this be, exactly?
Have you been living under a rock? The threads here about vegetarianism get pretty heated. Many of us care quite a lot. We don’t want to be belittled for being vegetarianism, we want to be left alone. We want people like you to SHUT UP about our dietary choices. They are none of your business. Just because you don’t understand them doesn’t mean that they are stupid.
No one’s asking for “reverence”, just stop assuming that people who have a different mindset, a different set of morals than you are “losers”. Stop calling people “losers” merely because you don’t understand why they do (or don’t do) certain things.
Cites, please?
Because men are animals whose primary objective is to reproduce. Choosing not to have sex violates their own foremost biological imperative. It’s no different than deliberately starving yourself or going without sleep. No other animal does these things because it’s stupid. Such things diminish their chances for their own survival and for the propogation of their genetic material. There’s nothing natural about it.
Diogenes: walk away from the thread. Trust me you’re not winning them over.