Dio, FTR, I wasn’t trying to make my argument sound “believable” to you. I was trying to put across my own experiences. I stick by my original argument in principle, esp. in the case of my current partner. However, I guess you could say that I’m not that experienced, as I haven’t slept with lots of different women (compared to some). Anyway, goodnight all. Maybe this thread will die quietly during the night. 
Proportion? Out.
samarm, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were trying to make it believable. I just meant that you had cleared up my misunderstanding of your first post.
Aw, forget it. I’ve got no beef with you, let’s just move on to some other thread.
Judging by the age of his kids, I will assume that I am roughly in the peer age with NaSultainne, so with it, comes hopefully a bit of wisdom with our life’s experiences.
I will add to the list of risks, I add unwanted children and unwanted abortions; and their emotional/mental consequenses. Assuming pre-marital sex happens largely in the pre marital age, we are seeing too many “kids having kids”. Child rearing is a big responsibility, and rarely have I seen a young lady, who otherwise would be at the prime of her dating life, having a kid to tote around, continually wondering just how to care for the little one. If she is lucky (or unlucky) to have the father around, he is in much the same situation, neither ever appear to be very happy. This is the time they could have been the young couple free to enjoy the first few years of marriage together, but now in the situation to have to manage a family.
If abortion is the choice, it would take only the EXTREMELY callous in our world that doesn’t feel some sort of emotional reprocussions from having that little life snatched from the belly.
The fairer sex often complains that “he did me and left me” and now he is the biggest jerk in the world. (By the way, I am old enough to freely admit we guys have some of those same feelings.) Perhaps we indeed dive under the covers too early in life, and perhaps too early in relationships. We don’t take the time to get to know the person we are nakedly playing the two backed beast with, merely “going for the gold”, regardless of who is on the receiving end.
I was brought up to beleive sex was a gift, an adventure, the greatest thrill a person was to experience. While I spent my collegiate life diminishing that thrill by way of sheer drunken volume, I have sought to regain the value of the act as I share my life with that special woman.
Maybe we should, as a society re think our media influence and emphasis on “gettin’ it”, and put a little more value on both the sex and the need to experience it. Maybe a little more discretion would help us all in the long run.
Oh, yeah, as long as all of us guys are checking in with penile length, I am usually the one who responds with “Yeah, it’s deep too!”
Hardly.
Yes, heavy petting can result in an STD. And just for the record - yes, I DO consider oral-genital contact to be sex. So is hand-genital contact. And if girlfriend has warts on her hand and gives boyfriend a “handjob” boyfriend might find interesting things growing “down there”.
For that matter - it is possible to get pregnant during heavy petting - if the little sperms can travel up several inches of female reproductive organs then a layer or two of clothing is not an insurmountable obstacle. Not quite on the level of “catching” pregnancy from a dirty toilet seat, but it has happened.
No, I didn’t miss the fact that there are some things virgins have to worry about much less than non-virgins. But I guess it totally blew by YOU that in some cases the woman is not to blame for loss of viriginity - unless, of course, you feel that sexually abused children seduced their adult molesters, or that rape victims were “asking for it”. Unfortunately, those two sceanarios are all too common in this world.
As I asked you in a previous post, do you consider kissing to be sexual contact? Because kissing spreads plenty of various diseases.
Just like the abstinence folks like to mention that condoms are 100% gaurantees against HIV, I like to point out that being a virgin isn’t necessarially a bill of clean health, either.
Whoa, dude, I hate to think you’re a lousy lover, but that’s the impression that statement gives. Women DO care about the quality of sex, women DO desire sex, women DO want a satisfying sexual relationship just as much as any man, and if she “usually don’t come anyway” then someone isn’t doing it right. I’m not going to lay all the blame on the men, since there are women are are messed up about sex, but next time you might want to phrase that differently.
Although not expressed in the way I would say it, I actually have to agree with this. But add that if men want to give a gift to their wife (AND help their own sex lives) they should get educated as to what a woman wants - and no, you WON’T find that information in Penthouse or Hustler.
Uh, yeah, somehow I do believe that is true.
You’re right, my experience is not typical - but why shouldn’t it be?
As I mentioned earlier - the older a woman is when she has her “first time” the more likely she is to enjoy it. But women are having sex earlier and earlier. I suspect at least a few of the 12 and 13 year old girls having sex these days aren’t even physically mature yet - meaning the machinery may not be ready. That doesn’t help, either. But between ignorance, fear, and the message society gives her that the first time is supposed to hurt, is it any wonder that young girls are too uptight to relax and enjoy themselves? Fear can cause the vagina to tense up, making penetration more difficult, and amplifying any pain that does occur.
An older woman is often (although not always) better educated about her body, sex in general, and also may have more control over the circumstances, all of which tends to promote relaxation and diminish any pain that would be experienced from breaking a hymen. If you re-read this thread (yep, that’s a lot of reading) I think you’ll find that the women reporting positive or enjoyable first times were almost always over 18, and probably over 20.
While I don’t think virginity has to be saved for marriage, I do think that it is usually healthier for girls to have sex either very late in the teen years or in the early 20s, rather than at 14, 15, or 16. Combine this with the fact that boys in the 12-18 age group are also inexperienced, often not entirely clear what THEY want (aside from orgasm), and frequently ignorant of how women see sex, this is a recipe for disaster.
You’re right, Diogenes - to a lot of men, particularly young men, sex is like taking a shit. They want to do it daily, they experience it as both relief and pleasure, and if they don’t get it often enough they fidgit and can’t sit still. Just as men have a certain drive to fuck and run, though, women have a drive to pair-bond and set up a household. This doesn’t mean either party is going to do that, just that there are impulses - sometimes strong impulses - in that direction.
This is why teen-age girls woo-woo over romance and love and long-term relationships (every boyfriend is going to be their “one true love”) and teen age boys focus on tits, ass, and how many times they’ve gotten their weenie waxed this week. All of which is perfectly normal (although not necessarily ideal) behavior in 15 year olds.
Two teens have sex. The next morning the boy wakes up, feel great because he’s had his, and gets on with his day - on to the next wonderful thing. The girl wakes up, she’s already planned engagement, wedding, kids, and retirement. She wants to talk about all this exciting (to her) stuff. SHE’s mad because he’s 'betrayed" her love, used her and dumped her. HE thinks she’s a freak just as much as if she spent the morning in the bathroom staring with admiration at the turd she produced just after breakfast. Males of all species have a drive to maximize their offspring, and in primates that means lots of women. Women, also, have a drive to maximize offspring but in humans the traditional route to that means snagging a mate for a long-term relationship (this is the same male who wants to philander) to help raise the kiddies. Truth is, human males also have a drive to nuture their kids, but it’s not as strong as in the women, and may not kick in until after their a father. Anyhow, both parties have slightly different goals here, and that’s where a lot of the screaming and cussing occurs.
Fast-forward 5-10 years. The girls have figured out that a crush isn’t the same as undying love, and sometimes sex is like scratching an itch. The boys have figured out that sex is better if the girl is happy, too, and a little emotional intimacy isn’t a bad thing. Men have figured out that damn few women are into casual sex, and that for a lot of women sex=commitment. Women have figured out that men don’t see things the way they do, and they shouldn’t assume that because they landed a man in bed once they own him for life. A lot fewer illusions all around. Result - on average, the sex is better for everyone. And that may be the case regardless of wether the parties involved fucked zero, one, fourteen, or three hundred time before the age of 25.
Funny you should mention that, I am currently a clerk at a Stop-N-Rob, and have been compared to Randal, the video store clerk on more than one occassion.
Broomstick,
I pretty much agree with everything you said. Like you, I think people should wait until they’re adults, and that they should only have sex with people they care about. I’m not advocating promiscuity or casual sex for anybody. I believe in monagamy and I don’t have much respect for guys that play around a lot. I also know that sex with someone you have no emotional connection too can be a very empty and depressing experience.
I guess it’s just that dogmatic “not until marriage” thing that I find to be sanctimonious and distasteful. I think promise rings are obnoxious. Why wear something specifically to advertise that you haven’t done the nasty? Why do other people need to know that? (I mean the generic “you” not you, broomstick).
I also find that a lot of these “virgins” have a pretty loose definition of “sex.” I have a brother that’s a born again Christian. He used to brag about waiting until marriage, but he was also getting blow-jobs and eating pussy and he said they didn’t count. (He has since gotten married) I’ve heard from other people in the born-again community that even anal sex is considered acceptable by some and that their precious “virginity” only applies to vaginal intercourse. This is the kind of thinking that occurs when the female hymen is mystified beyond all reason.
I think the line in the OP about “purity” says it all. What does that mean, “purity?” How is a virgin more “pure” than someone who is not?
I don’t know what you are talking about, Broomstick.
I’ve been a young lady who lost her virginity in her teens. I was hardly some scared little girl living in a delusion. I wanted to have sex, so I found a reasonable partner- a good friend, not somebody I was madly in love with- bought some condoms and then proceded to have a heck of a good time. It was the best possible way I can think of to have lost my virginity, and it was equally planned, equally well-thought-out and equally valid as any person that chooses to wait until marriage.
I know things don’t always work out ideally, but please, let’s not reduce full human beings- albeit youngs ones- to a mass of biological urges. Teenagers are sentient human beings capable of knowing what they want and making decisions about their lives, and in my experience they don’t tend to fuck it up any more than all the lonely broken adults I see running around.
Heh. Like you, even sven, I made a decision to have sex in my teens. Planned it, discussed it, sorted out all the appropriate practicalities, and went at it. Unlike you, however, I married him five years later.
It’s entirely possible to make sane and reasonable decisions about sex. The only time I’ve been bordering on thrown over with lust has been in my twenties, and even then, my partner and I worked on making sane and reasonable decisions about sex.
Meh. As to the whole “cult of virginity” thing, in my experience it’s more accurately described as a “cult of The One”. The one twoo wuv, the sacred bond defined by its exclusivity, save the virginity for The One, what if something threatenens The One, does that mean he/she wasn’t The One? A lot of sexual stuff seems to me to be tied up in “How can you have sex with her/him if he/she isn’t The One?”
Hey anyone have a spare magnifying glass? I can’t seem to find my dick
That’s why I love ya, sven! A very good point.
[Minor hijack]
About 4/5 years ago I was babysitting a two year old (or almost that). His parents had a meeting downtown so we al went downtown for lunch and then they left me with him to wander around the malls with a specific time and place set for me to meet them after their meeting. I was 15/16 at the time and amazed at the dirty looks/comments I got in those few hours. I realize being a teenage mom isn’t really a good thing (which is why I waited until I was an adult to have sex, well part of the reason) but it was shocking how many people were snarky to me about him, as I would have had to have been 13/14 when I had him. Had he been my child of course.
[/minor hijack]
I agree with sven too. Some teens (not all but there are some) are perfectly capable of making a major decision like that. Just as some adults probably should grow up some more before they do.
Part of growing up is making such decisions. Including bad ones.
Hell, you can get herpes from kissing-cold sores anyone?
No thanks, I already have one :mad:
Agreed. But it amazes me how many of my friends DON’T discuss these things before getting married. Or getting divorced for that matter. No, they just tell ME all about it. Then I ask them “Have you told your SO what you just told me?” Duh. I count to ten watching the stunned look on their face. Tell the truth? WOW what new concept!
“What?? If I knew you enjoyed THAT I never would have left you!”
There is a cult called the “Breatharians” who claim to live on nothing but air. No food. No water. One proponent of the Breatharian movement was caught eating chicken.
Considering that there are no believable examples of sane people abstaining from sex (saints excluded), your statement is not credible.
waves like a psychopath
Over here! Over here!