Well, yes, but I wanted to make a Whiskipalian/Baptist joke.
Always a worthy pursuit!
Tell him what you believe. Listen to what he believes. If there’s no common ground move on.
If your goal is to persuade him to join the “it’s okay” camp, this is the tack I would take.
I would also point out that this political issue isn’t about gay sex. No one is waiting to have gay sex until they can be gay married. (And few are waiting to have straight sex until marriage either, but that’s not because of the gays.) It’s about family and love and commitment. Gay couples who are already couples are seeking legal and social recognition of their bond. Something which, in the case of straight marriage, seems to help couples stay together through sickness and health, and caring for each other.
Another vote for listening to what he thinks first.
If you want to try persuading him of something, personally I’d focus on persuading him that civil gay marriage is totally separate from religion and that therefore there’s no reason that churches or pastors should take a stance against it. ‘Render unto Caesar’ and all that.
It is useful to remember that in at least some European countries I have been in, marriage is a civil and legal affair and ministers/priests/rabbis are not legally entitled to perform. If you want to follow the civil ceremony by a religious one, that is your own private business. It is the confusion of legal and religious definitions of marriage that causes the problem.
Try some sort of trolling approach, such as saying that getting worked up about the gays is keeping the church from focusing on much more widespread and serious issues like mastubation:eek:
Based on the tone of your OP I’d probably do my best avoid the conversation. You seem kinda-sorta overly tempted to try and wrestle with him about the internal logic, morality and meaning of the Bible. This would be insulting, pointless and a wildly arrogant fool’s errand if you actually went down this road.
He’s not looking to you for a lesson in hermeneutics what he wants in any discussion on this is some tenable position by which he can avoid conflict and division in his flock. He can basically take one of three positions. “Gays are children of God and embrace them” like the Episcopal Church or “Being actively and sexually gay is a mortal sin and no way to Gay marriage in my church!” like any of gazillion conservative churches, or try and nuance it with a "Hate the sin love the sinner" straddle like the Pope is doing.
Were I you I would avoid any gay is right or wrong conversations entirely. I would simply point out that gay marriage is legal and going to be a fact of life going forward. If he wants the demographics of his church to be old and conservative and diminishing he can choose the anti option, if he wants his church to be expanding and inclusive of young families he can choose the tolerance option. The choice is his to make.
Honestly, as an atheist, I’m not really sure you’re the best person to have this conversation with him. You’re not on the same page. But you make it sound like there isn’t anyone else who can provide “the other side” as it were.
I think he sets the direction it goes. Is he talking about whether homosexuality is a problem, or does he take that as given, but only wonders about SSM? If the former, you really need the hermeneutical approach. I’d probably just give him that book.
If the latter, though, I’d definitely go with the legal/religious distinction. And, yes, mention that the Bible may something about homosexuality, but it never says that homosexual marriage is wrong.
But, mostly, just listen to him, and provide responses that counter any anti-SSM leanings he may have. The stuff about the origin of morality is pointless–even if he’ll accept it, his position has to be based on coming from the point of view of the faithful. He needs a Christian reason to support or at least tolerate gay marriage.
You left out…
4), “The church is a money making business” approach!
With that, it is NOT in the interest of the church (any church) to condone any activity which will result in fewer church attendees. (Suicide, abortion, birth control, being gay, etc.)
So ANY of those things which would result in a diminished collection plate revenues will be deemed a mortal sin, you will go to hell, [insert other nasty threats], etc.
An, um, interesting and unique interpretation of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, particularly since he makes it abundantly clear that the idea “it is good to remain unmarried” is purely his advice and based on his own choices - v8 “I said…”, v9 “I said (not I but the Lord)…”.
The verses generally used to support the man/woman marriage view are Genesis 2 18-25, Ephesians 5:31ff, and Matthew 19:4-6.
The concept of a gay lifestyle in biblical times wasn’t even something that was a reality. Homosexual sex was normally done with prostitutes and by men that were being unfaithful to their wives. The concept of a loving homosexual relationship was practically unheard of. The condemnation of a man laying with another man, was the equivalent of a condemnation of infidelity.
As a Christian, the primary commandments we have are to love God with all our heart, soul and mind; and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Some of my neighbors are gay. So there.
As Christians we should encourage loving healthy relationships.
And as a final thought, Christ exhorts us a believers in the Parable of the Tares to not take on the role of judging others for we are not capable of appropriately judging the wheat from the weeds. We should leave that task to the angels in the end times.
He probably didn’t take a stance earlier precisely because he doesn’t have particularly strong feelings on it or because he didn’t want to alienate any parishioners. Yes, the issue is “settled” from a legal standpoint, but so are plenty of other issues a lot of religious folk take issue with, notably abortion. In this case, there are a lot of people who are even more upset now that it’s gotten the blessing, so to speak, of the federal government, particularly in the manner in which it happened, via SCOTUS ruling and not by legislation. So, I could understand he might be getting some pressure, from those who were pro-Gay to finally endorse it, and from those who are against it to help justify how they’re feeling.
I really can’t agree with this approach. We’re taught to love the sinner, hate the sin. If one believes that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, then it doesn’t make sense to condone homosexuality. To make that argument is to say “don’t be a liar” it doesn’t say “don’t condone lying”.
I also disagree here. Pointing out perceived or actual inconsistencies is probably going to just distract from the goal of the discussion. Either he has a different interpretation than you do, or he has some kind of construct that otherwise makes it okay for him. Regardless, arguing about how to interpret the Bible will probably just either come to an impasse and, thus, fail to make the point, or it could just become a full-fledged argument.
I’d also advise against this. You’re not even sure what he feels about homosexuality. Maybe he really doesn’t care at all, or maybe he has strong feelings. For a lot of Christians, they believe that morality is handed down from God, and I can’t say if that’s the case for him, but certainly many I’ve known who are vehemently anti-Gay don’t feel that they need to justify their moral disgust with secular reasoning. If anything, it’s the opposite and secular reasoning needs to be consistent with their interpretation of the Bible.
Let me give you my perspective. I was raised pretty strictly Christian and that homosexuality was a sin. Personally speaking, I think it’s fairly clear in the Bible in a few places that it condemns homosexuality as a sin, so I didn’t really question it. What changed my min was realizing that Jesus never spoke about it, in fact, he focused a lot more on loving your neighbor and loving God than on the minutiae of the law. In his sermon the mount, he warns us about being hypocrites, about worrying about our own sins before condemning others for theirs, and judging others in the manner we want to be judged.
As such, my interpretation of whether homosexuality is a sin or not is, it really doesn’t matter. And it doesn’t matter because I’m not gay. I should, instead, concern myself with what I know my own sins are and my own struggles. It’s one thing if their sin is hurting other people and I want to protect those people, but this isn’t a case for that.
And by the same token, there are things that I do that others might say are sins or even heretical, but I don’t see it that way, and I feel at peace in my relationship with my understanding of God, and so I don’t care what they think. And, in my eyes, it’s that casting of judgment on others that Jesus condemned in the sermon on the mount.
As such, I think what matters is whether a gay person is comfortable with their life and at peace with God, if they believe in him, or at least behaving consistent with their own morals, that matters. Hell, I’ve even seen interpretations of the commonly accepted anti-Gay verses that make sense as not condemning homosexuality, but I’m not enough of a scholar to make a judgment on which interpretation is most important, and since it doesn’t apply to me, I don’t care enough to bother.
Instead, I think the greater sin is believing something is immoral, and doing it anyway. Or in harming others, through word or deed. Or in condemning others for sincerely held beliefs and being consistent with those. After all, Jesus said himself that the greatest commandment is love. There are plenty of gay men and women I’ve met who are more consistent with so much of that than many I’ve known who profess to be Christian, and if the one point of contention is that they are committing that one sin, where we’re ALL sinners, it just seems inconsistent with my understanding of what Jesus taught. After all, there’s no doubt that a number of acts are sins, like prostitution, yet Jesus actively surrounded himself with sinners.
So, TLDR, if someone is gay, that’s between him, his partner, and God, I’m staying out of it. And for my own sins, those are between me, who may or may not be harmed by them, and God, and I’d ask others to stay out of that too.
Over the past 2000 years - has-
a) our culture changed wrt homosexuality?
b) has our knowledge of sexuality in itself changed?
If we’re able to ‘pick and choose’ some of the guidelines from the bible as being based on changes in culture - what makes this one any different? (most notebly the role of women in church).
If the founding principle of Christianity is “do not judge” or “love your neighbor as yourself” - what buisness is it of the Christian church to impose its views on others in this area?
(this is where/what I would start with).
I love it when people try to use Leviticus in the “gay” argument. I usually respond by asking if they eat pork or shellfish (also denounced in the same scripture). Going to Red Lobster is no different that attending a gay orgy if they want to play by that set of rules!
Then there’s always the divorce epidemic that so many choose to ignore. Just over 50% of marriages end in divorce in this country. According the words of Jesus himself, the only reason for divorce is if a spouse has committed adultery or fornication (that’s redundant, isn’t it?). For the millions of folks who divorce for any other reason, they are committing adultery if they remarry and they are causing their new spouses to also commit adultery. So well over 100 million Americans are currently adulterers and they want to talk about the ‘sanctity’ of marriage…as if!
It’s interesting how some ‘Christians’ pick and choose which part of the Scriptures they want to obey and which ones they simply ignore. That’s one of the reasons I walked away from organized religion when I was 21 (almost 20 years ago) and will never return.
I prefer to think of Jesus the way that country singer Miranda Lambert sang about him in her song “Heart Like Mine”-
"I ain’t the kind you take home to mama, I ain’t the kind to wear no ring,
Somehow I always get stronger, when I’m on my second drink…
Even though I hate to admit it, sometimes I smoke cigarettes,
Christian folks say I should quit it, I just smile and say “God Bless”…
Cause I heard Jesus he drank wine and I bet we’d get along just fine!
If he could calm the storm and heal the blind,
Then I bet he’d understand a heart like mine."***
I like you! =)
The point of Christianity is that we should strive to be “Christ-like” every day and to everyone! Sadly, many self-professed Christians are nothing at all like Jesus…
Even though I quit going to church 20 years ago, I still try to show His love and compassion every day of my life. Sometimes I fall far short of it, sometimes I get a little closer to the mark…but having the desire to follow His example and trying my best to do so is what matters.
I’d suggest this is the approach to take - don’t approach and argue it from a religious angle, talk about it from society, from the love and commitment they are making, from the legal rights standpoint of two people committing to each other.
It probably can’t hurt to mention religion as living entity - perhaps talk about the ordainment of female bishops and that debate? About the right of ladies to vote (although not a religious issue) - perhaps you could talk to him also about the philosophy of when and how religion updates and modernises?
This will NOT go over with anybody who has a fundamental understanding of the Bible.
Society/thetimes/currenttrends are not a rule/canon for religious behavior. A religious source is. The Bible is that rule/canon.
Further, the Bible speaks of endtime wickedness, and multitudes leaving the Truth. Again, what we call current social standards are no indication of what God wants, and, may actually militate against His will.
This is pretty good.
I appreciate everyone’s feedback. I haven’t been able to work out a time to sit down and talk, but my wife kept pressuring me to say something, so I wrote up an email, sat on it for 3 days to make sure I still felt OK with it, and just sent it out. You all did a pretty good job of talking me out of discussing scripture, and then I ended up finding astro’s advice most helpful, so thank you for this:
Here’s what I sent:
Now we wait.