The American Middle Fucking Sucks

Sorry, lad. Its a phrase like ad hominem so frequently bandied about here on Da Boards that one wrongly assumes it to be common jargon.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is the logical fallacy of presuming that because something occured after another thing, it happened as a result. “90% of heroin addicts started out on marijuana!”, for instance. Which may well be true, but is not a valid argument unless you can show evidence of a causative connection. 95% of heroin addicts drank milk as children, but no such claim is made that Elsie is a pusher.

You may safely ignore Shodan on this, as on anything else. He is still seeking the perfect balance of pithy, snide, and vacuous.

And yet, LaPore was one of the two votes, among the three county commissioners, in favor of manually recounting the ballots, which as I recall, the Republicans sued to prevent and/or halt. If she was truly a Republican mole, this vote would have been the point her position could have been used to the greatest effect. Try again, Mr. Captor.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/16/palm_beach/index.html

I was also under the impression that the ballot was approved by vore of the entire Palm Beach county commission, rather than a single member of that commission. Is this not true; did LaPore indeed have the power to approve this by herself?

I see… thanks. I’m sure the reason for Libya’s decision will be viewed differently here, of that I’ve no doubt.

And Stoid, I agree with your premise in many ways, if nothing else in that those swinging back because of Saddam’s capture probably allowed themselves to Weeble too far in the first place.

Taking polls at face value is moronic and so is fanaticism of any stripe.

In my (moderate to the core) mind you’re no better than Limbaugh, Stoid.

Oh, my! Well, we can’t have that, now can we! May I suggest you keep a sharp lookout for the user name Stoid, not generally hard to spot. Then, if you see the dread cognomen, you simply pick up your little basket and skip along, skip along.

Perhaps a bit harsh, upon reflection. But I’m rather fond of Stoid. She combines the best qualities of Emma Goldman and Emily Dickinson.

Yeah, she missed a trick there. It happens. Actually, from what I read LaPore was considered politically kinda neutral. I think she was just slipped a few bucks by some Pubbie ops. Little elves I think they call themselves.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/16/palm_beach/index.html

I was also under the impression that the ballot was approved by vore of the entire Palm Beach county commission, rather than a single member of that commission. Is this not true; did LaPore indeed have the power to approve this by herself? **
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One of the sites I looked at had a bit about that. Said LaPore claimed she’d shown it to the other commissioners, who at one time claimed they never saw it. But I believe (going from memory here) that they’d signed off on it. My guess is that they approved the ballot but that its potential for mischief slid right past them. Can’t blame them, it wasn’t really an obvious thing, thogh I guess it’s the sort of thing elections officials are supposed to watch out for. Their claim that they’d never seen it was a CYA move that got hastily retracted when it was shown they’d signed off on it.

Nasty Snatcher, was there anything in what you read which would indicate that the new ballot design was tested on potential victims/voters?

It’s an interesting OP, and one I could agree with on principle, except that this “American Middle” as described does not actually exist.

There’s a common misconception in this kind of analysis and thinking that statistical phenomenom actually represent people.

They don’t.

Most people think things like an approval rating represent how people feel about the President. What is actually being measured is what people are willing to say about how they feel about the present. It’s an important distinction, and it leads to several effects.

Most people have positive and negative feelings concerning something like the President. If something good happens, or he has success, people associate that with their good feelings and are statistically more apt to share their good feelings at that particular time. They hear good things happening, and they want to fit in, so they say good things. Similarly when something bad happens they associate that with their negative feelings. It fits in and it is appropriate to mouth those kind of sentiments, or so they feel. In reality, it is not their opinion that is so changing and malleable, it is what they are statistically likely to say about their opinion that changes.

This may sound shallow, but we all do it. Most people want to fit in. The classic example is the “no soap radio” joke. The joke is “two elephants are in a shower. What does one elephant say to the other?” The answer is “no soap radio.” If you tell the joke to somebody who hasn’t heard and laugh uproariously as you tell it (better still with a couple of other people laughing with you) the person hearing it is likely to smile or laugh or agree it’s funny. He’ll agree not because he thinks it’s funny but to fit in, or be polite, because he thinks it’s appropriate at that time.

It’s part of normal survival instinct. This is why most sane people won’t enter a Peta meeting with a live chicken and dismember it in front of the membership… or tell black people jokes among a group of black people, or engage in other behavior that is innapropriate to the particulars of time and place.

Good news for the President is an appropriate time and place to offer positive opinions, and people who feel sort of neutral will tend statistically to do so at such times… and say negative things on negative days.

Another factor that is present is that of the precipice. People’s opinions are subject to change. People who have a growing positive opinion about a President may be pushed over the precipice in their changing opinion by a positive event. Somebody who had a negative opinion about Bush who had that opinion slowly changing, so that he was reconsidering it may witness a few postive things like the Saddam capture and the Qaddaffi situation and that may be enough to cement his change.

In reality his position was evolving slowly and would have changed anyway. These events were just enough to push him over the precipice, confirm it and do it sooner than it would have happened before.

The same works the other way with negative events.

What you actually have when you talk about the “middle” is a large group with somewhat neutral feelings who voice positive or negative aspects of those feelings depending on what they percieve is appropriate and timely. Their opinions aren’t really changing, just what they are voicing. Within this group, there is a smaller subgroup who’s opinions are in the process of change but may change quicker subject to a precipice event.

It gets more complicated, but that’s the gist of it, and the effects are well-known to statisticians, surveyors, advertisers and such.

It also explains the seeming contradiction opined in the OP, that nobody on the boards that she knows is like that large malleable middle.

If they did exist, you would think they would be represented. This large malleable middle doesn’t actually represent people and their opinions. That’s not what’s really being measured. What’s really being measured is what people are willing to voice at a given time, and that is very subject to changing circumstances while the underlying opinions tend to be much less malleable.

Boris, darlink… you make me blush.

Friend Scylla makes several excellent points, but they are only varations on a single crystalline fact: “…What is actually being measured is what people are willing to say…”. I am wholly in agreement. As well, he has charted several perfectly reasonable results of this fact. One in particular, as regards a willingness to speak, is left unremarked.

No one wants to be thought unpatriotic. This is so mostly because none of us truly is, despite rumors to the contrary. The average American, whatever he/she/it may be, is loath to make any statement that might be so recieved, despite his personal convictions otherwise.

The parallel to Viet Nam is striking, and dismal. It took years of facts, dribbling out one by one, to finally wear down the mountain of denial, so that opposition to the war became, at long last, a respectable opinion. And once that moment arrived, once that threshold was breached…the walls come tumbling down.

So, to my point…given the general proclivity of Americans to avoid expressing such “negative” sentiments in “times of crisis” all such polling in skewed heavily in his favor. However, we can reasonably assume that the true level of approval is considerably less than the expressed level of approval. By the time the Average American is willing to say “The President” isn’t very good, he thinks far worse.

Given that this is so, “approval ratings” of about 50/50 means this man is in very deep kim chee.

I am grateful to freind Scylla for pointing out this heartening fact.

You keep thinking, 'luc. That’s what you’re good at.

That would be after the invasion of North Korea. Don’t worry. Your buddy, Rove, has that war all mapped out to start the day after Bush is re-elected.

“Man, I got vision while the rest of the world is wearing bi-focals”

Someone should send this thread to the Republican Party. All they’d have to do is quote from it at random in their ads, and post it on their website, and independents will come running. You pretentious snots are exactly why the Democrats are going to get their asses kicked next year. You have nothing but contempt for your fellow citizens - at least the ones that don’t think exactly like you.

It never ceases to fascinate me how determined some people are to take things personally.

Ok, I skipped page 2. Somehow, I don’t think I missed much.

Now at first glance, most of the objections to Stoid seem to be about form. As in, “Stoid, it’s bad form to insult the swing voters. They’re your friends”. Of course, this is the pit, so a higher intensity level is de rigour.

I’m trying to figure out what an objection to Stoid’s central point my look like: Stoid, I’m happy -overjoyed even- that the polls fluctuate by 10 percentage points every time there’s a little news event that says nothing about the underlying fundamentals. Oh, and the fact that Ray Fair can apparently predict the Presidential popular vote to within a percentage point based purely upon economic variables- that’s great! Even better, the fact that a strategy of arranging a recession early in your term (all the better to make the recovery sharper) will improve your election prospects- hey, I love it!.

More seriously, somebody else pointed out that polling errors should be considered. To that, I would add that question wording can vary, so not all polls can be compared in a straightforward fashion.

Furthermore, telephone polls are often conducted while people are preparing dinner, so they tend to reflect the opinions and sensibilities of the distracted.

Stoid, I’m not even American. Nothing personal here. But Jesus, listen to yourself - you expect that people should not take what you have to say personally? May I ask what freaking planet you live on? Is it really possible that you don’t realize just how offensive your attitude is?

You also come across as someone very small-minded. You apparently aren’t aware that you are without a doubt the most unthinkingly, knee-jerkingly partisan poster on this board. And that’s saying something with this crowd. Yet you apparently think you are the model of reasoned, nuanced thinking. I would suggest that before you go mouthing off about those non-enlightened hicks in the red states you spend some time in a little self examination.

Oh come on. This is outlandish. You’re fucking joking right? The Republicans were able to sufficiently predict the voting of the state of Florida, and the entire nation, so accurately and precisely that they were able swing the election through a bribe to the on single individual? And because of this bribe LaPore was willing to approve a ballot design, the use of which would cause enough mis-votes that Bush could carry the crucial state of Florida. And further, that when these evil machinations actually came to fruition and she held the power to halt the recount process, she failed to do so? Is this what you believe?

What I find interesting about this thread is that the
“lefties” here are making an extremely strong case for limitting the size and scope of government. The complaint is that people are too easily swayed by emotion into supporting silly political positions. True. Do you think it’s possible to change that? Not in the sense that it’s acutally part of human nature. It’s going to happen. But, what you can do is limit the effect that these types of decisions have on you as an individual. Don’t surrender so much power to the governement, and it won’t matter so much what other people think.

You are essentially left with 2 options. Educate every citizen to completely keep emotion out of political judgements, or fix the government so that it isn’t easily influenced by this tendancy in people. Fixing the government is by no means easy, but it’s a far cry easier than “fixing” human nature.

I guess the other possibility is that you could go for broke and set up a much more powerful government (eg, One Party dictatorship) and then be affected only by the whims of the governing elite. I’m hopeful that the left largely abandoned their love affair with that type of system a few decades ago.

Yea well, it never ceases to amaze me how people can spout some ridiculous bullshit and then get shocked when other people call them on it. For chrissakes Stoid, you appear to be advocating totalitarianism with your post (contempt for ‘the public’, etc.). Others may think you remind them of Emily Dickens (etc. etc.) but, quite frankly, you remind me Stalin. Democracy is the only way the people get the government they deserve. If you don’t like it, tough. Try getting out and educating the public rather than lambasting them.