Oh, olives. I thought you were like me and just really didn’t see it as that big a deal. I’m just happy that other people are happy and can move on. I really don’t think it matters one bit practically, as everyone is already trying to attack us, and everyone seems to be distancing themselves from the guy. And I honestly can’t see any difference between people celebrating that and people posting shit in the Pit. It’s just catharsis.
He, too, has resigned his part
In the casual comedy;
He, too, has been changed in his turn,
Transformed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.
Naturally. Action was imperative.
Including mine.
It is of course regrettable and unfair to blame all for the malevolence of some.
But it is also regrettable that Islam contains a substantial fiendish element already
obvious long before 9/11, then brazenly displayed en masse in the pride and joy
of so many who took to the streets in response to that fiendish act. Our own
response has been commendably restrained considering the magnitude of the crime.
I just want to add that not a single one of my friends on Facebook is saying a thing about Osama. I even went down to where it says “there are no more posts.” Seems they are already “catharted” out.
BTW, in my previous comment, there’s an assumed “And the guy who it could hurt is dead, and said worse things while he was alive anyways” at the end.
As has probably been said by someone else earlier in this thread, I refuse to begrudge anyone in New York or Washington DC their reactions. And as far as I can tell, the big celebrations I’ve seen in the news were only in those locations.
The actual disgust should go to pundits who say Obama is some kind of wimp for deciding not to release the photos.
Make up your mind.
I think you must have quoted the wrong quote, or else you’ve run out of appropriate words: “New-agey”, for instance.
I don’t get the impression CW was giving the US a hard time because they’re not peaceful and groovy and down with the harmonic convergence, but something more practical and down to earth, like the general concept that ‘violence begats violence’.
Keep in mind that Bin Laden first came to US attention as one of the Mujahideen, and the US pumped money and weapons to the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. We arguably created him,as well as the Afghanistan we later had to invade. Sure, killing Bin Laden was the thing to do, but it’s kind of like finally killing the zombies that we raised by reading the forbidden book in the first place. Yeah, you want to celebrate, but you may not want to celebrate by doing an ancient voodoo ritual dance.
Although I have earlier expressed a “gruesome” wish to see the photos released,
my esteem for President Obama is such that I will give him the benefit of the doubt
in any decision he makes. If he wants to withold the photos he has my support.
You’ve pretty much nailed it, but I find myself regretting that I’ve let my custom title lapse. 
This is inflammatory nonsense and exactly my point. Tell that to the victims of 9-11 who are against celebration of the killing. Tell that to the families of murder victims who beg the judge not to sentence their loved ones’ killer to death because their loved one respected life, and they won’t allow some sadistic scumbag the power to change their values. It’s not like vengeance is the only valid reaction here.
I did no such thing. What I said was very clear. Violence freaks me the fuck out and I don’t like killing. Period. If anything, 9-11 reinforced my already existing belief that violence is a horrible, horrible disease that I want nothing to do with whatsoever. You are reading all sorts of convoluted messages into that, up to and including some kind of distaste for Americans or judgment of the people involved. Maybe that’s what you’re getting from other people, but it sure as hell doesn’t reflect my stance.
I’m just going to stop it there because this is an understandably emotionally charged issue for a lot of people, including myself. We’re all much better off finding some point of unity rather than lashing out at each other. We’ve all suffered in some way because of the vile actions of that man. I don’t find much comfort in Osama’s death but I understand that many perfectly normal people do, and for those of you who do, I wish you healing and peace.
You’re really all over the place in this thread, aren’t you? I still want to know what the hell you mean by “death worship.”
Amanset’s just upset that he’s quite so stupid and carriers a grudge against me, but isn’t able to do anything about it other than angrily vomiting in threads where he thinks his spew might reach me. I think in his lexicon “being a twat” means “showing that Amanset is an angry idiot, again.”
Anyways:
Nah, new agey was a good term. From violence “corrupting the human mind” to the claim that killing terrorists “desensitizes us to violence” to “just wanting the killing to stop”. I suppose you could quibble that it wasn’t, necessarily, new agey claptrap, just some sort of vague, modernish soft-headed claptrap.
That isn’t what you said.
You compared the situation to Lord of the Flies, which is an absurd, unfair comparison. And then you lumped in nonviolent celebration of Bin Laden not being free, serving as a successful example of terrorism and possibly planning future murders, with Bin Laden’s own murderous actions:
This is a pretty rotten thing to say.
You seem inexplicably incapable of noticing that there is actually something to celebrate here other than death, and as a result you are attacking those who feel some level of relief and happiness. Which brings me to:
My comparison was to celebrating a guilty verdict, not to celebrating a death. Personally I am against the death penalty. You are wildly off the mark.
Isn’t it okay to celebrate the guilty verdict simply because it means the murderer won’t be out there getting away with murder, possibly murdering again, and giving an example to others that you can get away with murder?
Do you think it would be right for Bin Laden to get away with mass murder, those affected never to get closure, Bin Laden himself to be free to participate in future terrorist attacks, and his success to give an example that you can get away with mass murder?
Seriously, do you? It honestly sounds like you would prefer that, if catching him meant that he would resist and might be killed.
If not, isn’t it okay to celebrate that we finally stopped him from getting away with mass murder, hopefully gave some closure to those affected, prevented him from participating in future attacks, and gave an example that you won’t get away with mass murder?
Do we agree that is okay to celebrate? It is hard to believe you honestly can’t understand this.
What makes it awkward is that in this case it took the form of a death. But Bin Laden is the one that forced it to be awkward. He didn’t have to commit mass murder, and he didn’t have to resist being brought to justice.
Initially I was making what I thought were obviously sarcastic comments.
Unfortunately, several people in the thread made even crazier comments in all seriousness, leading my sarcasm to be missed.
When you have people taking the actions of a tiny, selected minority as representative of the entire public, people lumping together nonviolent relief and happiness with a calculated mass murder, and even people claiming that Americans are happy that 9/11 happened because it allowed them to exercise their bloodlust, it is really hard to say anything that can be recognized as sarcasm.
Carmady, you are making no fucking sense. You’ve done a complete 180 from your position earlier in the thread. Out of all the people making ridiculous claims in this thread (yourself included, although I think you are the only one making ridiculous claims for both sides), you decide to jump on Olives? I think… you might be nuts.
ok, I may be twisted for recommending this, but if the government wants to put some more cash in the coffers to…oh, I don’t know…KEEP EDUCATION WELL FUNDED, they need to capitalize on the gruesome voyeuristic tendencies of the American public and put the OBL death picks on a pay website. $19.95 (plus tax) and you can look at the pictures. this could be a multi-billion dollar idea.
Ooooh. Well I asked if you were being sarcastic, and you replied with a rant about ghouls. Are you being sarcastic with the “blood on the murder victim’s relative in court thing” too? Sarcasm is easy to imply when you are speaking, but when you are writing you have to be really good at it or you are going to lose people.
You’re not reading carefully. She said:
She didn’t compare it to Lord of the Flies, she used Lord of the Flies as an example of how violence begats violence. If she were comparing it to Lord of the Flies, there would be some sort of comparison happening, she’s quite literate.
Yup. But he’s got a 2008 join date, so maybe he’s not a spring breaker.
Okay, what the hell.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I was appalled by 9-11, I was appalled by the war in Iraq, and I’m appalled by this.
[/QUOTE]
It’s clear there may be some misunderstanding of what I meant by ‘‘this.’’ As I have already stated, I don’t begrudge people their feelings. There is a lot of normal grieving human stuff happening with this. But when people start talking about desecrating corpses, that’s going to freak me the fuck out. I’m not apologizing for being disturbed by that. I hope to hell the average person is at least a little squeamish about being anywhere near a corpse, much less mutilating it.
The main thrust of my post, though, wasn’t even that I found the whole celebration disturbing. What I found most disturbing was the vitriol with which people respond to those who say, ‘‘You know, I don’t feel much like celebrating right now.’’ Because apparently catharsis or healing whatever is only okay for those who want to celebrate. Fuck those of us who just feel sad and tired and disturbed by the cumulative effect of constant media exposure to death and war. It’s not like the death of Osama exists in a vaccum - it’s tied to all this shit. Ten years of shit. Constant shit, and that little fucker is the one who started it all. Some people feel jubilation, and others, like me, feel like throwing up. I’d be happy if I never had to hear another word about that asshole ever again. My whole point is that the celebrations are not in any way more legitimate than other responses to this event. There is more than one normal human response.
I didn’t do any of these things. I said I think people become desensitized to violence because perhaps I’ve read one too many books about people becoming desensitized to violence. I think the more bloody corpses one sees, the less s/he will be disturbed by future bloody corpses. Apparently that’s new age claptrap, but last I knew it was a pretty fundamental principle of behavioral and social psychology. But apparently I can’t say that without people deciding I’m dumping buckets of blood over grieving family members, or something.
Dude. I’m seriously not attacking anyone. I basically said that I feel like I’m being attacked, and you went and proved my point by attacking me.
The utilitarian argument for taking out certain people makes logical sense to me. I think the Buddha would agree that Osama had to go. I don’t have to relish his suffering, but I can definitively say that the suffering of the world has been diminished significantly as a result of his removal. I’ve even appreciated a good joke or two about this. I don’t think that scenario could have ended any other way. Osama’s death was inevitable the moment he decided to commit vile and reprehensible acts. But I don’t think his death can cover the multitude of his sins. I don’t think there is any justice for acts like these, so when people talk of justice, and closure, I cannot relate. My country is falling apart. Our political leaders can’t have a conversation without shouting at one another. The war rages on. So pardon me for not dancing in the streets.
The vast majority of the country is not dancing in the streets. And virtually nobody (literally nobody I’ve heard) is claiming that you are wrong not to dance in the streets. I think you are off base here.
There is a big difference between “I don’t feel much like celebrating” and “The American Public is Fucking Gruesome”. You see that, right?
From what you wrote, my interpretation that you were joining in the attack on people for their normal responses was perfectly natural. That is why I responded; I never said you were wrong for not celebrating. I can go through your posts and explain why I interpreted it that way, but since you say you are not doing so, and you seem to understand that there is something to celebrate that doesn’t make you “gruesome” or “ghoulish”, I would be glad to save some time and just let it go.
[QUOTE=Carmady]
From what you wrote, my interpretation that you were joining in the attack on people for their normal responses was perfectly natural.
[/QUOTE]
In my neck of the woods, people have very much assumed that the feeling about this is universal. It was brought up by no fewer than five different people at work yesterday, once in the middle of a business meeting. Politics are not often discussed during business meetings at my place of employment, but apparently this was okay because, of course, everybody must be absolutely thrilled about this. I had actually been thinking about it moments before, sort of hashing through my own feelings (which admittedly seem to be changing all the time), and got so frustrated and worked up that I decided just to ignore the whole thing until it blew over. Not twenty minutes after mentally checking that shit at the door and getting back to work, someone brought it up. There’s no getting away from it. Everybody wants to talk about it. So I decided to participate in this thread.
There is a big difference between ‘‘Violence is appalling’’ and ‘‘All of you are scum and should be ashamed of how you feel.’’ You see that, right? I can be a pacifist and still accept the feelings of others.