He said this because I was using the NIV Concordance to look up certain words in Hebrew. The concordance gives all the meanings of any word used. So, his point was simply irrelevant. However, I understand what he’s trying to say, and that’s why I never answered his question. Let’s just say that I got the point that there can be more than one meaning to a word.
Dernhelm, you say:
I never said that my message of intolerance was a message of love.
I find it very distressing that most of you can’t grasp the concept of “loving the sinner, but hating the sin.”
I can love all of you, but be intolerant of your sin. In fact, I’m SUPPOSED to hate sin, because it’s commanded in the Bible.
God does it, Jesus does it, Paul did it.
Do you understand this? Do you understand that God loves every person ever created? But can you also understand that He abhors sin? My goodness, it’s so simple to grasp, but most of you fail to comprehend it. He loves you, but He hates your sin. He sent Jesus to die for you, so your sins could be covered. That’s how you get to heaven. It’s easy as pie…no it’s EASIER than pie.
I so wanted to find solid stats to refute this idiotic idea, but alas, such numbers were elusive. Nevertheless, I think the stats I did find help to shed some light on this issue.
But first, I have to ask: Adam where do you get these ridiculous ideas? First off, in countries where Christinaity is a foriegn religion of course most Christians were converted as adults. There was no Christinaity in these places until the missionaries got to them and, while they have been known to run around baptizing every baby they can find, I don’t think you can make the argument that these are infant conversions.
Now as to the crux of your argument, I believe you are wrong. Most people follow the religion of their families. Though I tried, I can’t find U.S. statistics on this. However, if you want to extrapolate from the statistics I have found, consider this: Below is a list of nine non-Christian countries and the percentages of the population which follow various religions. Because these countries are non-christian, virtually all of the Christians represent adult conversions. Now, note the incredibly small number of Christians.
India: Hindu 80%, Muslim 14%, Christian 2.4%, Sikh 2%, Buddhist 0.7%, Jains 0.5%, other 0.4% Nepal: Hindu 90%, Buddhist 5%, Muslim 3%, Other 2% Thailand: Buddhist 95%, Muslim 3.8%, Christian 0.5%, Hindu 0.1%, Other 0.6% China: Officailly atheist, but Taoism, Busshism and Muslim 2-3%, Christian 1% (est.) Sri Lanka: Buddhist 69%, Hindu 15%, Christian 8%, Muslim 8% Japan: Shinto/Buddhist 84%, Other 16 % (including Christian 0.7%) Turkmenistan: Muslim 89%, Eastern Orthodox 9%, Unknown 2% Pakistan: Muslim 97%, Christian, Hindu and Other 3%
(Stats courtesy World Fact Book 1998)
Furthermore, these perccentages have changed very little over the past two decades, suggesting that most people do not change their religion.
Granted, these statistics do not address your assertation preceisely, but I would ask you to think about it this way: If what you suggest is true, then most Christians today are adult or teen converts and were not raised as Christians. The current demographic info regarding religions in the U.S is this:
Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jews 2%, Other 4%, None 10%.
If most of these 56% were adult or teen converts, what were they before? Are you suggesting that a couple of decades ago only, say, 20% of the population were Protestant, and that since then the additional 36% have converted?
Please Adam, please try to educate yourself a bit rather than just thinking up thoughts in your head and deciding they are true.
As an aside, you might notice that in all of the statistics I sited save for the U.S., Catholics are counted among the Christians. Most of the world does not exclude Catholics from the catagory of Christian. Personally, I don’t see how you can exclude them either, since being a Christian means that one follows Christ, which they clearly do.
“I think it would be a great idea” Mohandas Ghandi’s answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization
No, I said your message was intolerance, you said it was love. I was just pointing out that people perceive things differently and you can’t just say ‘you’re dead wrong’ in response. As in what you said to matt:
Lucky,
Those numbers are very interesting. I ran some myself and found that, according to the fundamentalists, approximately 5 billion people are going to hell worldwide. The total population of the world was quoted at approximately 5,575,954,000 while the world population of protestants (some of them are going to hell too) was just 382,374,000 (based on census). Hmmm, heaven will be sparcely populated indeed.
Dernheim: well, at least we’ve gotten Adam’s answer to my question about gift. As always, he dodged it. But not too well.
Upon even a cursory perusal of the query as I posted it, one would notice that I said, “I’ll not even tell you what language it is.” So, that word could mean “present” or it could mean “poison.” But it doesn’t have those two meanings in the same language. The reason I picked that particular word is English is a Germanic language. Gift in English means present, in German it means poison.
Now Adam, perhaps you’ve heard that I spend a good deal of time translating in my day to day affairs. I can tell you that a good dictionary is a necessary help to translating, but there is no way to reliably translate using just that dictionary and a total lack of education in the langauges concerned.
You’ve not only not studied Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, you’ve not studied the Bible. Heck, you haven’t even read the Bible!
What you have studied is what some preacher you believe is perfect spouted.
I’m not sure why my comment was made into a big deal. Threemae said:
To which I responded:
What’s the big deal. If I’m guilty of anything here, it’s that I stated the obvious. Of course Christians from other countries were saved through the teachings of missionaries. I understand this.
But in the U.S., I think that many people are saved as teens or adults. And that number may be larger than those raised in the faith.
Let’s not forget, that people can be raised Protestant, and then fall away from God. Thus, if they were “re-saved” later, they’d fall into the category of “saved as teens or adults.”
Perhaps I’m not making any sense. I think I’ll quit while I’m ahead.
[QUOTE]
BTW, when I say Christian, I mean Protestant, not Catholic.[/QUTOE]
Uh hello?! Catholics ARE Christian. Last time i checked we followed Christs Teachings. Boy i wonder, if we arent Christian then why do we always use gospel readings that talk about Jesus. Oh, and also why do all the Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians,Presbyterians and a few of the other charismatic churches (Protestant BTW),follow the Catholic Lectionary (Which BTW pre-dates the Bible as you know it). I agree Adam, you had better quite while you’re ahead before you put your foot further into you mouth.
“Let me show you something
that you’ve never seen before
like a light im gonna shine on you
forever is a word i dont often get to say
but if you say it loud enough i’ll say it too”
[[Matt…or anyone for that matter: Do you think that God hates you? Do you think that God hates people? I suspect that some of you are angry with God. And perhaps you could tell me why.]] Arghhhhh!!!
How can one think a being “hates” anything when it is completely unclear whether or not said being even exists?
On the other hand, if “God” as you describe “him” exists (unlikely, IMO), yes, I think “he” is a detestable monster to be hated, opposed, and destroyed to the extent we can do so.
Why? Because “he” is so heinously evil and unjust. “Love me, despite any evidence that I exist, or I’ll torture you for eternity.”
I think it’s less easy than pie, but a good deal harder than Devil’s Food Cake. And forget about brownies, man…they’re so hard that they make getting into heaven look easier than chocolate milk…but less easy than buttermilk.
sigh
Now please tell me you are not so silly as to think this is true. From your post, however, it seems you are referring to conversions to your faith only. You seem to suggest that if someone was raised Lutheran and later came to be a member of your church, that you would consider them an adult convert to Christianity. Wrong!. They were Christians before and are Christians now. What do you call people who convert from Baptist to Methodist? Or how about from Missouri Synod Lutheran to the American Lutheran Church?
What you are really saying is that you think that most people who practice your version of Christianity are adult or teen converts. I’m incliined to doubt this, but I have no statistics and no desire to look for any. On the other hand, I suppose if one had a difficult time finishing high school, one might look for a religion which required very little mental acuity.
Adam I will advise you again that you really should learn how to do some research. It will not serve you well in life to either A) accept what someone else says as true, without looking into it, or B) think up ideas in your head without benefit of facts and decide to believe them.
It is absolutely hysterical to see you berating Monty and claiming that he doesn’t understand the Bible when he has actually studied it, while you admit that you’ve never even read the whole thing!. You go on to insist that he must study the Bible and compare it to the BOM in order to draw a sound conclusion about both works, yet you refuse to do exactly what you request of him!
I’m begining to think you’re hopeless.
“I think it would be a great idea” Mohandas Ghandi’s answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization
If I didn’t know better, I’d say that John the Cyberian is back, and this time he’s got it in for Catholics and Mormons rather than Jews! I can see the title now: Return of the Bigot.
Thanks, Lucky. BTW, sorry about the bolding, etc., not showing up–I just used C&P.
I think we’re forgetting that Adam’s exemplar of faith and source of knowledge is his 12 year old brother (as Adam told us before). So I guess finishing high school doesn’t play into it as most 12 year olds haven’t even entered high school.
For real entertainment check the latest Life in Heaven thread in the BBQ Pit. Adam posted, essentially, that he believes the Bible is fiction and I pointed that out. His response to that is underwhelming.
ARG220
Member posted 08-06-1999 12:26 PM
“Actually, if I took a poll of Christians around the globe, I’d guess that far more were converted as teens, or adults, rather than being raised that way…especially in other countries where Christianity is the foreign religion. BTW, when I say Christian, I mean Protestant, not Catholic.”
Well, let’s be a bit more precise. If you took a poll, you’d probably find that most Christians **believe** that they decided as teens or adults to be Christians. But that’s because they are ignoring the indoctrination that they received as children. Basic facts about human nature:
Human children , especially those younger than five years old, are very impressionable, and if a child has Christian parents, the child will unquestionably accept Christianity as “truth” , even if the parents do not explicitly tell the child that he/she must believe in Christianity. Even if the child isn’t taken to church, if the parents are Christians, and all their friends are Christians, then Christianity becomes the norm.
Humans want to believe that whatever they believe, they believe because of rational persuasion. They are therefore inclined to believe that they believe in Christianity because of decisions made as a teen or adult, and to rationalize their belief in Christianity.
ARG220
Member posted 08-06-1999 12:26 PM
“Oh, BTW Matt: I never spread any message of hatred. That’s just how you perceive it, even though you’re dead wrong.“
According to your religion, homosexuals and other people that have “offended God” should be put to death. Now, I realize that some people consider killing someone they love to be possible (e.g. Old Yellar, Beloved), but this is not a generally accepted point of view. The fact of the matter is, if you go around saying that it’s okay to kill someone because he/she won’t go along with your religion, the natural response is to say that you’re spreading a message of hate. I don’t see any reason for the rest of us to change our standards of what is acceptable to do to someone you love just because you want us to.
-Ryan
" ‘Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.’ " -Kurt Vonnegut, * Breakfast of Champions *
Wow. I thought this thread would never see the light of day again, but I guess I was wrong.
Ryan: I’m not sure what you’re trying to do here, but “my religion” does not think that homosexuals should be put to death. My religion doesn’t think that anybody should be put to death for that matter, as that would be murder. And don’t say that “it’s in the Bible,” because as evidenced in GD (in “Where have all the miracles gone”) , your interpretation of Scripture is just a wee bit off.
ARG says that there is
no evolution & that if people evolved from monkeys there would be
no monkeys. Well, there are monkeys, & we all know that there is evolution, & since ARG
did not evolve from a monkey—therefore ARG is the official
Straight Dope Monkey-Boy & official missing link! Many happy
returns of the day , ARG!
It is absolutely, positively, 100% correct to say that, based on the overwhelming evidence currently available, humans did not evolve from monkeys.
Humans evolved from great apes (some would even argue that we are still great apes). While monkeys and great apes do share a common ancestor, they branched off from each other before becoming monkeys and apes.
Adam, I think the main difference between your world-view and that of the other Christians on the board is that we see a God who loves mankind. Granted, He is distressed by how we hurt ourselves and each other (the only good definition of sin I’ve run into, except for “what separates one from God,” which sort of begs the question). But He loves us, just as we are.
I had a clergyman once who, when stopped by fundamentalists and asked if he had been saved, answered, “yes,” and when they asked when, answered, “since Good Friday, 29 AD.” The point is that it’s His free grace that saves us, not anything we do, including believing. Belief (and good works) are the proper response of people who have come to know Him and love Him back, but that’s all they are. We’re called to trust in His love. (“By grace are you saved through faith…” – noting that “faith” is the simple noun for “trust” not the intellectual adherence to dogma in the Greek.)
I have no doubt that God loves Matt_mcl just as he is…except for one thing:
I think he may have a bit of a problem with the Esperanto thing! As for LDS, they don’t make nicer people. I disagree strongly with the doctrine of eternal progression, but that’s neither here nor there; they’re my beloved brothers and sisters.
Flora, have you heard the old canard about the Unitarian who was asked for a simple statement about what Unitarians believed in. His answer: “{long pause} well… a maximum of one god…”
Adam, the Bible, as I think you know but haven’t put into place, is a collection of writings by a large number of men. You and I believe that every word is there because the Holy Spirit wanted it that way. But, and forgive me for putting it this way, the Bible is not and should not be the basis for your faith. If your faith is not founded in God and God alone, then it is worthless. Anything and everything can get in the way of your relationship with God, and when it does, it’s an occasion of sin. The Bible included. Look at how adherence to its teachings has mucked up what you intended to be witness on this board. Again, anything and everything can be a means of fostering your and others’ closeness to God. I once used a Motley Crue song as a means of witnessing to a young man I was very close to, and it helped him through a rough time spiritually.
I think you’re sincerely trying to see the world through different eyes, without abjuring your commendable faith in God. And I think you’re having a rough time of it.
I’ve noticed several people on this board doing the exact things they criticize you for doing. While this is the Pit, I think turnabout is fair play – if you don’t care for what Adam is doing (or what you think he’s doing, you shouldn’t do it to him.
Ummmmmmmm. Polycarp, I appreciate that fact that you want to help me, but…how can I say this…your post goes against God’s Word. First of all, I believe that God loves everybody. I’ve said it about a million times in my posts, especially my earlier ones back in the Great God Debates. Sure God loves Matt, and He loved Jeffery Dhamer. What He hates in everyone is the sin, and that’s why we all need Jesus to cover our sins.
Oh, you know what…I don’t want to argue. If you want to know the truth, read Matthew, and John. Those two books cover everything you need to know about the conditions for salvation. You’ll find that we DO need to believe, and that NOT everyone is God’s child, and not everyone is saved.
You’re right. I’m trying to see the world through Jesus’s eyes. Because my vision is not good enough. I need His mind, His heart. I must decrease, so He can increase. There needs to be less of me in me, and more of Him. I want to be just like Jesus.
Poly: could you expound on what you meant by “they don’t make nicer people” in referring to the LDS?
Adam: Again and again we come to the one point you apparently refuse to understand. How can you say that “Those two books cover everything you need to know about the conditions for salvation” when you have not read the entire Bible? You have absolutely no way of knowing for yourself what’s in the unread six percent.
since it’s only six percent of the Bible, and this is a long weekend, READ IT BEFORE YOU PREACH AGAIN!
p.s. And if, as you just maintained above, that’s all one needs to know, lay off the other quotes too.
Monty: What on earth is it with you and that silly six percent? The stuff I haven’t read is the stuff in Numbers and Chronicles. I don’t think I need to memorize all the members of the house of so-and-so to live a good Christian life, or to be a good preacher. (Not that I am though) Don’t get me wrong. Those lists of names in the OT are important, and should be there. But they have nothing to do with what I’m saying here.
I think Poly meant that there are no nicer people than Mormons. It’s true too. I’ve known a few, and they are incredibly nice folks. If being nice could get you into heaven, then all of you Mormons would be set. Seriously, that’s a compliment.
Do unto others before they do unto you. Sudden & unpleasant.
Purely unscientific and not researched at all, but I’d bet the rent money that a goodly percentage of the murders and acts of opression in the history of the world have been in the name of one religion or another.
